The Complete Polymorph Thread 3.5

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[*]Ghaele, Outsider(good), medium, 50ft, NA +14, Str 25, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 16; MM/SRD
Benefits: Light Ray(Ex) Ranged touch, 2d12 damage, overcomes all types of DR

cannot use light ray(ex) without the alternate form(su) ability
I'd like to mention the brachina devil as a decent outsider form for characters who rely on Dex or multiple attacks and also an excellent target for PAO. Finally, depending on the RPGA availability of the book, it might be an obnoxious backdoor to sneak Polymorph back into a RPGA game.

Pleasure Devil (Brachina); Outsider (baatezu, evil, lawful); Medium; Fly 60'; NA +7; Str 18; Dex 27; Con 18, Int 23; FC2 p.134
Benefits: Poison(Ex): Contact Fort DC 22, 1d6/1d6 Wis; Dodge, Mobility

As above, Dodge and Mobility are bonus feats and thus available if you wish. There's also the Int score, which is slightly higher than anything else I've seen on the list. Notice also the contact poison, useful to those who can manage a number of slaps against the enemy cleric.

Additionally, as Polymorph grants the subtypes of the assumed form, you gain the baatezu subtype, which is rather neat. Let's see...immunity to fire and poison, See in Darkness, telepathy...and Summon Baatezu. This is from the most recent version of the subtype (in FC2), and the tanar'ri subtype (most recently in FC1, perhaps?) similarly grants Summon. It's quite mean, but apparently rules-legal to Draconic Polymorph into a pit fiend and then grab a horned devil to do your bidding.

Finally, brachina devils can use Polymorph as an SLA at will. And they can be either summoned (be LE and use Summon Monster IX) or called. Hence the potential RPGA backdoor for polymorphing (depending on how ironclad the restrictions and bannings are).
No. You don't even get those with Shapechange.

But you do get them with Planar Shepherd. ...

Stupid, broken class ...

That is, of course, until someone lets me play it, at which point I'll say it's the most robustly balanced thing ever.
for the Link


to add something:

Monster Manual 5 has a fun one for low levels:

Bladerager Troll large giant, 6HD... +5 Natural Armor, 28 Str, 16 Dex, 28 Con

great for using with Skin of Proteus:
Skin of Proteus
This psychoactive skin continually affects the wearer as the metamorphosis power. While in a form other than his natural form, the wearer does not appear to be wearing the skin.

Moderate psychometabolism; ML 7th; Craft Universal Item, metamorphosis; Price 84,000 gp; Weight 2 lb.

all day with great Strength, Dex, Con ...... even better with 1 level of Fist of the Forest or 2 levels of Deepwarden..... or both, then you get:

+9 Hit and Damage
+22 to AC(+5 natural +9 FoF +9 Deepwarden -1 size)

:D
since you get the racial bonus feats of what you polymorph into wouldnt you then be able to acquire a bonus feat of yuor choosing by polymorphing into a human or strongheart halfling?
  • Will-O’-Wisp: 9 HD, Small, Fly 50 (perfect), Str 1, Dex 29, Con 10
    Normaly you do not gain Special Abilities of a creature, however, you do gain abilities that are 'natural abilities'
    Natural Invisibility (Ex)
    A startled or frightened will-o’-wisp can extinguish its glow, effectively becoming invisible as the spell.

I can't see how this is valid - the Polymorph spell only says you get the extraordinary special attacks, but not extraordinary special qualities - nothing about gaining "natural" ones..

The Metamorphosis power from the XPHB (essentially the same, but arguably different), expands on this a bit to say that you gain the "physical qualities", and mentions a few "natural" things, but nothing that would imply all natural abilities fall into this category. It even says you get a fly speed if the creature has wings,.. meaning that metamorphosising into a will-o’-wisp wouldn't even enable you to fly.. (or move at all!).

Are there some other rules that talk about this "natural ability" thing?

Nice thread by the way ;)
Anything cleared on the Will-o-wisp thingie?

Our party rogue is on his way to America (we are on the other side of the world ) and I am looking for a suitable spell to scout ahead. We expect a lot of ambushes...
I like Lilt's idea above, so I've decided to adopt (read: swipe) it for a related purpose -- my newly-minted 7th level wizard has just acquired the polymorph spell and has cast it to become a 7-headed hydra**:

Seven-headed Hydra
CN Huge Magical Beast (1)
Init +1; Senses Listen +5, Spot +6 (2)
Languages as base character
-----
AC 16, touch 9, flat-footed 15
(-2 size, +1 Dex, +7 natural armor)
hp 28 (3)
Fort +7 Refl +3 Will +4 (4,5)
-----
Speed 20 ft (4 squares); swim 20 ft
Melee 7 bites +4 melee (1d10+4) (6)
Base Atk +3; Grp +14
Atk Options none
Special Attacks none
-----
Abilities Str 17, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 14
SQ multi-headed; regrow heads (7)
Feats Scribe Scroll, Empower Spell, Combat Reflexes (B) (8)
Skills as base character, Swim +11 (9)
Advancement N/A


The footnotes:

(1) Originally listed as Huge Humanoid (Elf) because of a misunderstanding of the applicability of the polymorph errata.

(2) Though you retain racial skill bonuses of the form you adopt (from alter self, you use your own stats if those skills are based on a mental skill such as Int, Wis, or Cha -- thus this wizard has Listen and Spot one less than a typical hydra (which has Wis 10). Also, because you do not gain the extraordinary special qualities of the assumed form, the wizard does not get darkvision, low-light vision, or scent from the hydra form (and loses low-light vision from his elf form, as it is not a class-based ability).

(3) You retain your own hp when polymorphed, though the character could have regained up to 7 hp of damage upon assuming hydra form. (See polymorph.)

(4) You retain your own base saves, which makes Fort and Reflex significantly lower than for a typical hydra.

(5) You retain only creature bonus feats, so the wizard doesn't get the benefit of the hydra's Iron Will feat.

(4,5 addendum) Note as well that any magic items possessed by the wizard that modify AC, saves, stats, etc. that cannot be worn by a hydra are not figured into the assumed form's stats; such an item "melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional" as per the description of alter self. I see nothing in the description of polymorph that contradicts this assertion.

(6) Based on a new understanding of the relationship between alter self and polymorph (see below), I now agree that you'd get seven melee attacks, even after moving in a round. The attack bonus, however, is accurate for a typical 7th level wizard.

(7) The hydra's ability to regrow heads is not marked as a special quality in the monster write-up, thus technically it would be something that the caster could conceivably gain (though there may be a rule that such an ability is implicitly an extraordinary special quality and thus not gained). Multi-headed, in the sense that the creature is not killed by losing a head until all of its heads are lost, is pretty clearly a "gross physical quality" (see alter self).

(8) The caster gains the hydra's racial bonus feat. Note that the description of the hydra's racial bonus feat allows the caster to make one attack of opportunity for each of its heads. The caster also retains its own class-based bonus feats.

(9) Since the caster gains the hydra's swim speed, it also gains a bonus to Swim checks if it doesn't already possess one. Since Swim is a physical skill (based on Str), the resulting skill check is equal to that of a typical hydra.

If this is really the way polymorph works, count me underimpressed. (Though not as severely underimpressed as I was prior to the edits above.)

** -- technically you could decide to be a cryo- or pyro-hydra rather than just a hydra, though there would seem to be no benefit to this, as the breath weapons and energy immunities, though not noted as such, are pretty clearly "extraordinary special qualities" at least, if not supernatural qualities, and would not be gained by the caster anyway.

--
Pauper
(1) Based on the errata to Polymorph that you do not gain the type or subtype or special abilities of same based on your new form; because of this, you either retain your old type/subtypes or have none -- the former seems more reasonable.

They do? As far as I know, the errata just isolates Polymorph from the rest of the game.
(6) The description in alter self states thus: "A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal." I see nothing in the description of polymorph that contradicts this. Thus the polymorphed hydra gets only one attack per round, even with a full attack, because that's all the wizard is entitled to. (If I'm missing something here, please point it out, because everyone seems to think that you get seven attacks in hydra form.)

The spell also notes that you do gain the "physical qualities of the assumed form". Which include "natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on)". And a seven-headed hydra has seven bite attacks as its natural weapons. Given that text, the text you're talking about is generally interpreted as noting that you don't automatically get the creature's MWF capabilities (as with xills, mariliths, and whatever that four-armed bugger was from MM5).
(9) Since the caster gains the hydra's swim speed, it makes sense that it would also gain the hydra's Swim skill; as a physical skill, it's based off of the hydra's stats, not the caster's.

Strictly speaking, you'd be gaining a bonus to Swim checks as a result of having a swim speed in the first place, not because hydras get it.
If this is really the way polymorph works, count me severely underimpressed.

I've noted the major assumptions that change things by being faulty.
They do? As far as I know, the errata just isolates Polymorph from the rest of the game.[/b]

OK, I see now that I was misreading other folks' interpretation of the effect of the errata. So Huge Humanoid (Elf) should be changed for Huge Magical Beast above.

The spell also notes that you do gain the "physical qualities of the assumed form". Which include "natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on)". And a seven-headed hydra has seven bite attacks as its natural weapons.

But note that there's a difference between 'natural weapons' and 'natural attacks'; a 'natural attack' is an attack with a natural weapon, distinguished from attacks with manufactured weapons, attacks with spells, maneuvers such as grapple (which you can only perform a number of times per turn based on your BAB, regardless of number of natural attacks/weapons you possess).

Given that text, the text you're talking about is generally interpreted as noting that you don't automatically get the creature's MWF capabilities (as with xills, mariliths, and whatever that four-armed bugger was from MM5).

OK, so the point is that because the hydra has a specific ability that allows it to make multiple natural attacks as a single action, you can use it when polymorphed? (Just as you can use the hydra's unique interpretation of Combat Reflexes when polymorphed?) I'm not completely convinced, but I'll go with it.

Strictly speaking, you'd be gaining a bonus to Swim checks as a result of having a swim speed in the first place, not because hydras get it.

So if your normal form already has a Swim speed (and thus a bonus to Swim), you'd need to recalculate the Swim score? Fair enough.

I'll modify the character/monster block above, but I'm still not impressed with a bunch of +4 melee attacks at ECL 7.

--
Pauper
But note that there's a difference between 'natural weapons' and 'natural attacks'; a 'natural attack' is an attack with a natural weapon, distinguished from attacks with manufactured weapons, attacks with spells, maneuvers such as grapple (which you can only perform a number of times per turn based on your BAB, regardless of number of natural attacks/weapons you possess).

I'm confused about what you're trying to say here. However, "natural weapons" and "natural attacks" are generally used interchangeably. (WotC's glossary doesn't even mention the former.)
OK, so the point is that because the hydra has a specific ability that allows it to make multiple natural attacks as a single action, you can use it when polymorphed? (Just as you can use the hydra's unique interpretation of Combat Reflexes when polymorphed?) I'm not completely convinced, but I'll go with it.

It's unclear as to whether you gain the "full-attack-as-standard-action" ability because it's not clear what sort of ability that is. (The same goes for head regeneration.) Regardless, you do get all its natural weapons as per Alter Self (so you can make a lot of bites on your full attack), and you do get its version of Combat Reflexes (as it's a bonus feat).
I'll modify the character/monster block above, but I'm still not impressed with a bunch of +4 melee attacks at ECL 7.

The hydra form functions better if you can get all those attacks to connect. Regardless, polymorph is considered ridiculous for its versatility (any number of combat options, not all of which require attack rolls) and its ability to grant some really high ability scores (war troll, firbolg, etc.). The war troll itself is a decent example here, considering that it not only has decent armor and 30+ Strength, but it also has Dazing Blow.
Regardless, you do get all its natural weapons as per Alter Self (so you can make a lot of bites on your full attack)

But that's the problem -- the text of alter self specifically says that "you are not allowed to make more attacks (or more advantageous attacks) than normal". Take out the parenthetical and it seems pretty straightforward -- just because you have two natural weapons (a claw and a bite) doesn't mean you can use the natural weapon attack pattern of claw/claw/bite.

Polymorph doesn't seem to reverse this restriction; the closest you can get is the point that polymorph does reverse from alter self, in that you get the extraordinary special attacks of the new form using the former, and not using the latter -- however, polymorph gives examples (constrict, improved grab, poison) that suggest that the text means precisely what it says -- you gain the special attacks listed as (Ex) among the creatures special attacks, not that you gain the creature's regular attack form. Not to mention that the alter self restriction isn't even in the same paragraph with the 'extraordinary special attacks' restriction -- this may seem like nitpicking, but the two spells do seem to be deliberately grouped similarly for precisely that reason -- so that a caster can tell what parts of the lower-level spell are superceded by the higher-level spell.

Thus my initial reading -- if you assume the form of a creature with Improved Grab and Constrict, you can both grab and constrict as normal if you hit with the appropriate attack, but there's nothing in the text of polymorph that would seem to override the restriction on number of attacks set by alter self. Since even a Wizard fighting with two weapons can't make seven attacks in a single round, it seems reasonable to say that the wizard can't attack seven times, even if it finds itself in a form with seven heads. Again, for the moment I'll go with the flow, since that's the accepted interpretation.

Regardless, polymorph is considered ridiculous for its versatility (any number of combat options, not all of which require attack rolls) and its ability to grant some really high ability scores (war troll, firbolg, etc.). The war troll itself is a decent example here, considering that it not only has decent armor and 30+ Strength, but it also has Dazing Blow.

Oh, I'm not saying the spell is worthless by any means; I'm just not as impressed as I was based on my reading of other folks' descriptions, and I'm certainly not impressed with the way most folks say to use polymorph.

As for the war troll, let me treat the War Troll the same as I treated the seven-headed hydra above and see if it looks any better to me, keeping in mind that the caster has to be at least 12th level to assume this form:

War Troll
CN Large Monstrous Humanoid
Init +7; Senses Listen +8, Spot +9 (1,2)
Languages as base character
-----
AC 26, touch 12, flat-footed 23 (3)
(-1 size, +3 Dex, +14 natural armor)
hp 43 (4)
Fort +13 Refl +7 Will +7 (5)
-----
Speed 40 ft (8 squares) (6)
Space/Reach 10 ft/10 ft
Melee 2 claws +16 melee (1d10+8) and bite +11 melee (1d6+5) (7)
Melee Masterwork greatsword +16/+11 melee (2d8+15/19-20) (8)
Base Atk +6; Grp +16 (9)
Atk Options none
Special Attacks Dazing Blow (on hit, DC 25 Fort save or struck opponent is dazed for one round)
-----
Abilities Str 31, Dex 16, Con 29, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 14
SQ none (10)
Feats Scribe Scroll, Empower Spell, Alertness (B), Improved Initiative (B)
Skills as base character
Advancement N/A

1) The preview War Troll doesn't list which feats are racial bonus feats, so I'm operating off the presumption that Alertness and Improved Initiative are the racial bonus feats for the War Troll.

2) The War Troll has a base Wis of 15, which when recalculating the sense skills for the Wizard results in a -3 to each skill based on reduction of Wis to the character's base. For the moment, I'm presuming the War Troll's Alertness feat is racial (though even if it isn't, the Wizard would still gain the same stat levels if she had her familiar within arm's reach)

3) Note that the Wizard must be wearing armor in order to gain the armor bonus the regular War Troll possesses -- this is not a problem for a gish, but is for the example character, so the AC is lower.

4) The character could heal up to 12hp of damage when changing forms, but will not have more hp than listed without additional effects.

5) Saves are based on the character's base save bonuses, plus the physical stat bonuses for the War Troll (and the mental stat bonus for the character).

6) Presumes the character is unarmored. Note that since the War Troll has limbs and can speak, the Wizard can cast spells in War Troll form, which further suggests that a non-gish Wizard will prefer to go unarmored here.

7) Presumes that the ability to use natural weapons is as noted, and that the Wizard does not gain the War Troll's Multiattack feat. Attack bonus based on BAB of the Wizard.

8) Attack bonus and number of attacks based on the BAB of the Wizard, not the War Troll; also since Weapon Focus is assumed to not be a racial bonus feat, no bonus from that. Presumes both that the Wizard possesses a Large masterwork greatsword to use** and that the Wizard gains proficiency in the weapon and armor listed in the War Troll description (as per MM p.311).

** - If the Wizard instead borrows a Medium weapon from one of the Fighters in the party to use, not only does the weapon do less damage than listed, but the Wizard takes an additional -2 penalty to attacks for wielding an off-sized weapon (PH, p. 113 - Inappropriately Sized Weapons). However, the weapon is likely to be better than simply masterwork, which may help make up for the differences.

9) Based off the Wizard's BAB, not the War Troll's.

10) As in the previous example, the Wizard loses her racial Low-light Vision and does not regain it, even though the War Troll possesses it.

This seems a bit more impressive, even after conversion, but if you're assuming War Troll form to fight War Trolls, you're going to get punked. (And since a War Troll is CR 12, a single creature is a perfectly legitimate encounter for a group of 12th level characters.)

Now I could understand if someone wanted to argue that a polymorph wizard is likely to buff herself before assuming her preferred combat form, which will result in significantly improved combat stats in many cases, but that will usually take time, at least until higher levels where Persistent buffs become available. I guess I really don't see where a Wizard buffing herself and polymorphing into a combat form is better, in just about any way, than that same Wizard buffing the party Fighter*** and polymorphing him. But everything I read about polymorph suggests that the Wizard is supposed to use it herself...

*** - Not only does the Fighter have a higher BAB, and thus either keeps or sometimes improves the combat stats of the form he's put into, not only does the Fighter have more hp even before buffs, but the Fighter also gets to keep all of his Fighter bonus feats when polymorphed.

--
Pauper
Under the "Become an Outsider" section, you could add the the spell "Devil's Ego", a Diabolic domain spell from FCII.

Swift action activation, 1 min./level duration. If only it were on a more conventional list...
Forgive me if I state anything incorrectly here... I'm currently playing a druid, wildshaping based on Alternate Form, but our party wizard just hit 7 and is researching polymorph options and I am trying to help out.

For wildshaping, it's fairly straightfoward at this point that I get anything in the "Special Attacks" listing that is also Ex, but not Sp or Su (until I get to the elemental form exceptions), especially because my type does not change.

I see now that because polymorph still changes type, it may actually grant things from the "Special Qualities" listing, even though it does not explicitly grant Special Qualities, because many of those are based on type. For example, I assumed that turning into an Ooze was pointless because you would be entirely unaware of your surroundings due to no Blindsense. So special qualities given to the entire Type via traits are gained via polymorph?

-- In fact, Ooze traits include mindless to provide immunity to mind-affecting effects (obviously not true for someone polymorphed), and blind - specifically stating that they then have Blindsight as a Special Quality, but that is not an actual Ooze trait.

Also, since polymorph is based off of Alter Self, does it have the same +/- 1 size category restriction? The mage is Small (a gnome), so it seems that his allowed polymorph sizes are T, S, and M. Poly says nothing smaller than Fine, but it doesn't exactly say it supercedes Alter Self's size restrictions.

I realize that these would really make polymorph pretty gimpy, but that's how things read to me at this point... tell me I'm wrong?

It's sort of ironic that he could polymorph me into an animal and apparently give me the lowlight vision (and scent?) qualities that I don't get via wildshape, but then I wouldn't be able to cast spells with Natural Spell because the feat explicitly calls out wildshaping. It's also interesting that if the size restriction of Alter Self doesn't apply, he can turn me into a much better treant at level 7 than I will be at level 15 via my class skill, as treants still possess all the required features for spellcasting even without Natural Spell.
Question for the polymorph experts here:

After reading http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1014017&page=1 I realized that I know of something that weighs exactly 4500 lbs, a Mimic.

Mimics can speak, so you can at least use verbal spellcasting.

(see where I'm going yet?)

Here's the question: Can I (legally) use Polymorph to change myself into a Mimic (Large Aberration p186 MM) and tempt my foe into "opening the chest." When my prey comes near, I Teleport (V) above him 10 feet and drop, thereby causing 22d6 damage?
Any updates for the newest material before 4E?
I was looking for some suggestions for my wifes character. She plays a mounted halfling arcane trickster, CL 8.Her familiar is her mount, so I was looking for some forms that would capitalize on this combo.. She will use Bloodwind on the familiar, in order to get those Natural Attacks off without closing.She already spends most combats with Greater Invisibility up and running, and this cuts down on the attempts to blow the familiar out from under her.

My picks for her familiar are Wyvern for when she would want to be able to fly, and Hydra for when that doesnt matter.
My picks for her are harder.She needs her Dex(16) and her Con(14) to go up, plus some other advantage(natural armor?), in order to make this combo sing.She also needs to be able to still ride her familiar.Size matters some, but not too much-she does without armor, and she could carry a second bow of appropriate size.But the best I have found on the recommended list is the Gloura.
Now all this assumes that a master and familiar can share the same Polymorph spell, but choose different forms. If not,I probably dont need a form for the halfling. The buffed familiar is still worth doing, I think, but only if she is going to ride him anyway.
I'm confused on how one can use PAO to become an undead, a construct, or an elemental.
Mercurial dragons (Dragons of Faerun 140 has their age progression chart) make for excellent speed forms. (The 6HD very young dragons have 200' perfect flight!)
Also, Avorals and Leonels have the Guardinal subtype. (It's in the MM, not SRD.) Certain demons have the Tanaa'ri subtype and some demons have the Baatezu subtype.

Shambling mounds can make excellent 8HD plant combat forms. They're a bit more defensive than treants; Large instead of Huge, fire resist 10, and bonus CON when hit by electricity.
Maybe it's a bit offtopic but I'm having some troubles with my DM about polymorph RAW.
My DM says that the Alter Self paragraph "A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal." makes you unable to use any natural weapons that you (as your base race) cannot use. He agrees that you get the natural weapons from, for example, a lion, and can do his attacks because you do have 4 extremities and 1 mouth, but if you happen to polymorph to a hydra, you cannot use more than one bite, as "you normally have only one head".
I have pointed that "The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form." (Rules of the game, polymorphing revisited part 1) and he does agree, but still says that RAW polymorphing into a Hydra would make you have 1 bite attack, 1 bite full attack, because of the alter self text quoted above.

So, any sugestions of where to look to enlighten him? The thing is, I don't have any problems about houseruling something, but he claims that his POV is RAW, and I disagree.

Thanks in advance for your time
Koalita - your DM nerfing Polymorph, such that it acts like Alter Self but with a higher HD cap, seems reasonable.
Go get Assume Supernatural Ability from Savage Species, if you want to get back some power.
His POV is his pov, and if he also thinks his pov is RAW, then it's a happy universe he lives in ...
just not the CO-board's.

It's a very playable Houserule.

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 

Go get Assume Supernatural Ability from Savage Species, if you want to get back some power.

"Some of the power," he says...
Stayin' alive!
Combat Forms

  • Griffon: 7 HD, Large (5' reach), Fly 80 (average), NA +6, STR 18, DEX 15, CON 16
    Attack: Bite +11 melee (2d6+4) and 2 claws +8 melee (1d4+2)
    Special Attacks: Pounce, Rake
    • Pounce (Ex)
      If a griffon dives upon or charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
    • Rake (Ex)
      Attack bonus +8 melee, damage 1d6+2.
I believe that the Glabrezu would be an excellent addition to lvl 12 outsider forms, especially for combat prowess. For the ones who think being huge is a drawback, I'll just say "+8 size mod to grapple checks".

Glabrezu, Outsider(tanar'ri,evil), huge, NA +19, Str 31, Dex 10, Con 31, Int 16;
Benefits: +8 listen, spot, Improved Grab, 5 natural attacks (2 pincer, 2 claw, 1 bite), ability to wield weapons and cast spells


Also, I would include the tanar'ri subtype:
tanar'ri:immune electricity and poison,resist 10 acid cold fire, summon tanar'ri, telepathy
for fun

:D
No love for the legendary ape? Str 30, Dex 28 (I think), Medium-sized and with thumbs.
No love for the Choker? Decent physical ability scores, though you don't want to use PAO for it as its intelligence is awful. 3 HD aberration, and you get the ability to take an extra standard or move action every round.
Ok I read through this thread and Still have very little understanding as to what I accually get when I polymorph

I am an 10 Bard/1 Sublime Chord and have Draconic Polymorph

When I Polymorph Into a Great Stone Giant will my Sizing Longsword grow with me, or meld into the New form and become usless? What about my Non-sizing Armor?

If I was singing Before I changed, could i continue to sing after, assuming I am in a form capable of doing so?

If I turn Into a 11 Headed Hydra would I have a 11 BAB or my not so impressive 7?

Could I Cast Spells after I change, again assuming the New form is capable?

Would I lose all of my feats in exchange for only the Racial Feats of the Monster or would i get all the feats they have and none of mine?

This one is a lil weird- Once i hit 12th lvl and get Song of Arcane Power, i could raise my Caster level by 4, and use Inspire Greatness to give my self 3 Extra HD (Song of the Heart) Could I then Polymorph into things i normally wouldn't be able to? For Example my dude who normally has 12 HD now has 15 and a Caster lvl of 16, could I now Change into something with 15 HD? If so what would happen once the Inspire Greatness Wears off?

Thanks in advance?
When I Polymorph Into a Great Stone Giant will my Sizing Longsword grow with me, or meld into the New form and become usless? What about my Non-sizing Armor?

Your Longsword stays the same and does not meld. You can then use the Sizing power to bring it to your size (if your DM gives you trouble use the Sizing power first).

If I was singing Before I changed, could i continue to sing after, assuming I am in a form capable of doing so?

Yes.

If I turn Into a 11 Headed Hydra would I have a 11 BAB or my not so impressive 7?

BAB doesn't change.

Could I Cast Spells after I change, again assuming the New form is capable?

Yes.

Would I lose all of my feats in exchange for only the Racial Feats of the Monster or would i get all the feats they have and none of mine?

You should lose racial feats (technically - many DMs let humans keep theirs) and gain the creature's racial feats. Other feats (from levels or classes) are unchanged.

This one is a lil weird- Once i hit 12th lvl and get Song of Arcane Power, i could raise my Caster level by 4, and use Inspire Greatness to give my self 3 Extra HD (Song of the Heart) Could I then Polymorph into things i normally wouldn't be able to? For Example my dude who normally has 12 HD now has 15 and a Caster lvl of 16, could I now Change into something with 15 HD? If so what would happen once the Inspire Greatness Wears off?

You should indeed be able to Polymorph into a creature with 15 HD. But we're venturing into "weird rule interaction" territory so ask your DM.

OoP's characters
My current character in Real Adventures Play-by-Post games:

 

  • Maeve in The Lost History of Istar


 
Normally, you can only polymorph into a creature with your HD or less (max 15) that's no more than your caster level. If you gained temp HD and CL to be at least 15 each, you could RAW become a 15 HD creature.
This was due for another bump.

Still alive.

Ive read over the complete polymorph thread and I cant find a scrap of proof that says you retain natural abilities when you polymorph. For example everyone seems to feel that if you polymorph into a Will-O-Wisp you can fly and turn invisible, however the spells wording specifically excludes extraordinary flight without wings? Also, Natural Invisibility falls under speical qualities whcih polymorph and alterself also exclude.. so if someone could give me hard proof, IE page numbers in the actual books where these are mentioned I would be greatful.. everyone seems to agree you can turn into a willowisp and become invis, except my DM so I'd like to prove it to him. So if you can specifically lay it out and post quotes from the books and such I would be much appreciated Thanks guys I hope you can help me.


Ive read over the complete polymorph thread and I cant find a scrap of proof that says you retain natural abilities when you polymorph. For example everyone seems to feel that if you polymorph into a Will-O-Wisp you can fly and turn invisible, however the spells wording specifically excludes extraordinary flight without wings? Also, Natural Invisibility falls under speical qualities whcih polymorph and alterself also exclude.. so if someone could give me hard proof, IE page numbers in the actual books where these are mentioned I would be greatful.. everyone seems to agree you can turn into a willowisp and become invis, except my DM so I'd like to prove it to him. So if you can specifically lay it out and post quotes from the books and such I would be much appreciated Thanks guys I hope you can help me.




Polymorph spell says "..does not gain extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form" (Phb, p. 263) For the Will-o-Wisp, that means the invisibility and immunity to magic. So, no, you don't get them. You'd still get an AC of 29, perfect 50' flight and darkvisision. Sorry.

Cool concept... Let me know if their is hole in the idea.

Bard 10/Sublime Chord 2: W/ feats Words of Creation & Song of the Heart; Plus Draconic Polymorph

Inspires Greatness with Words of Creation on the Big Stupid Fighter (or anyone for that matter) = +5 Hit Dice, YAY HP!

Then using a good bonus from perform (at this level 15 ranks, 6 from CHA, 4 from misc bonuses) = 75% chance to get +4 caster levels from "Song of Arcane Power" and another +1 from something like item or Create Magic tattoo = +5 caster level

all of this = Draconic Polymorph into a 17th lvl Something Awesome... Cool

Downside is it takes two turns & you have to be close, but it could be worth it. You could do it before combat too (then enter room..)

Added: Not totally sure if this will work either but I hope someone knows-

Same deal as above but the Bard also has the "Practiced Spellcaster" feat. So when he increase his HD with Inspire Greatness he automatically get +4 caster lvl (+1 misc.). AND THEN uses Song of Arcane Power to increase the CL by another !

= +9 to Caster Level for spells!!Tongue out

Let me know if any of this doesn't work...

After reading the thread, there is still some confusion left  concerning the shapechange spell.

my questions are:

1.) Do I gain the feats of the sample creature while I'm in its's form?
2.) Do i get the SLAs?
3.) Can i cast the spells the creature can cast ( example: shapechange into a solar, hooray 9th level cleric spells)?
3 b.) If this is the case, do my caster levels stack with that of the new form ?
4.) Can i still cast my spells , if the new form has a speech and a bodyform not too far away from humanoid?
5.) Do only the phsyical or also the mental stats change? ( Again the solar example, if my character normally does not sport a wis mod of at least 19, does this mean no 9th level divine spells?)
6.)Which forms would you recommend in the range of 17-25 HD ? If read about choker, chronotyrm , efreet and Zodar, but is there anything less cheesy thats worth takingß
7.)Is it worth for a druid of lvl 17 to prepare this spell in his only 9th level slot or would you recommend something else? 
After reading the thread, there is still some confusion left  concerning the shapechange spell.

my questions are:

1.) Do I gain the feats of the sample creature while I'm in its's form?
2.) Do i get the SLAs?
3.) Can i cast the spells the creature can cast ( example: shapechange into a solar, hooray 9th level cleric spells)?
3 b.) If this is the case, do my caster levels stack with that of the new form ?
4.) Can i still cast my spells , if the new form has a speech and a bodyform not too far away from humanoid?
5.) Do only the phsyical or also the mental stats change? ( Again the solar example, if my character normally does not sport a wis mod of at least 19, does this mean no 9th level divine spells?)
6.)Which forms would you recommend in the range of 17-25 HD ? If read about choker, chronotyrm , efreet and Zodar, but is there anything less cheesy thats worth takingß
7.)Is it worth for a druid of lvl 17 to prepare this spell in his only 9th level slot or would you recommend something else? 



1) Only racial feats
2) No
3) Yes, but you don't automatically have them prepared in your memory, you would have to rest and prepare them just as they would and also need the appropriate ability score to cast the spells.
3b) No
4) Yes
5) As polymorph, so only physical
6) Dragons and dread linnorm for breath weapons, Balor and Pit Fiend for obvious reasons, pheonix for planar travel, spirit of the land for high SR, invisibility, and incorpreal
7) YES!


This is a good thread but needs to be updated and is still somewhat hard to find.  People need to talk more about Polymorphing!
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