The most powerful character. EVER.

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The Ethereal Doppelganger's from the Monster Manual II. The most overlooked, overpowered monster in the game--well, up until you posted this.

No matter how I slice it, I come back to the same place. The Artificer can EQUAL Pun-Pun's power, but he can't exceed it...and he can't equal it until a much higher level unless he gets his hands on a scroll of Gate. (Shapechange won't cut it because of the Hit Dice issue.)

I must, therefore, reluctantly concede the field. Pun-Pun does, indeed, have the power advantage over an Artificer 20.
I'll rule if the kobold get a dragon's strength his size go up to dragonsize as well. After a component of their strength come from their size. A dragon would be weaker medium size. So let do this. What's the strongest medium reptilian critter around? Another thing to consider if someone polymophed into a reptilian one, the ability affect the polymorphed form physical stats which go poof when you shift back. Can affect mental ones lol. Be a scaled one to start with. Snake Blood feat will do. Have familar or psycrystal affect you and no worry about losing any physical stats. I'm going to rule base score as well. No bull strength or the like. I might rule you get bull strength but as a continuous effect. Well within the range of the ability. One thing yall have not considered was adding racial modifers or inherent bonuses. :D So base score, add racial modifers, luck modifers, morale modifiers, inherent bonusues, enhancement bonuses and hmm what else? See you can have a powerful medium sized reptilian one with all of the above and no infinite loops. I just remember the paragon template. Add that on top of everything else lol. +15 to all stats without changing size? Gimme.
Yes, perhaps an infinite loop by level 3 isn't good enough for some people. They would rather wait 9 more levels to make sure they look good while doing it .

Of course. It is why James Bond gets the ladies.
give me an hour, I'll have one that does the trick at ECL 9
Extaminaar Divine Minion of Nephtyhs
Wildshape Ranger 1 Alertness Track
Wildshape Ranger 2
Wildshape Ranger 3 Endurance Assume Supernatural Ability (Manipulate Form)
Wildshape Ranger 4
Wildshape Ranger 5
Master of Many Forms 1 Improved Assume Supernatural Ability (Manipulate Form)
Master of Many Forms 2
Master of Many Forms 3
How many hit dice does a Sarrukh have, again?
since the rate of cancer mage increasing str is less than the kobold's, given any fixed amount of time for them to advance, and the kobold is going to beat him out.
How about gestalt rules for classes? Add all of the classes without having to use the rules for gestalt lol. I mean all the prcs without being limited to one. I wonder if you can make it so you can cast anything arcane, divine and psionic like a warlock. no limits
.......... I thought I'd seen it all. A man who casts with a level 3534 sorcerer (a la HIVE), a man who can destroy the earth in a matter of rounds (HH), someone who couldn't be hurt at all (twice betrayer), but this.... I thought it was safe to read things in the CO board, that my mind would survive. But, it seems, I was wrong. Thanks to Khan I may never play D&D again, just th thought that in a game I may run into Pun-Pun makes me sad on the inside.

~Rogue Newb
Extaminaar Divine Minion of Nephtyhs
Wildshape Ranger 1 Alertness Track
Wildshape Ranger 2
Wildshape Ranger 3 Endurance Assume Supernatural Ability (Manipulate Form)
Wildshape Ranger 4
Wildshape Ranger 5
Master of Many Forms 1 Improved Assume Supernatural Ability (Manipulate Form)
Master of Many Forms 2
Master of Many Forms 3

What is a Divine Minion? And where is Assume Supernatural Form and Improved Assume Supernatural Form?
How many hit dice does a Sarrukh have, again?

They have 14 HD.
since the rate of cancer mage increasing str is less than the kobold's, given any fixed amount of time for them to advance, and the kobold is going to beat him out.

I guess it depends. If the Kobold and the Cancer Mage both started out at level 1 in the same party, the Cancer Mage gets his loop off first, and has all of the time between level 3 and level 12 to increase his strength. But at level 12, I don't think it will take long for the kobold to catch up and surpass the Cancer Mage.
Thanks to Khan I may never play D&D again, just th thought that in a game I may run into Pun-Pun makes me sad on the inside.

If you run into Pun-pun in one of your games, thank your sadistic DM, not me ;).
What is a Divine Minion? And where is Assume Supernatural Form and Improved Assume Supernatural Form?

Assume Su Ability is in Savage Species. Divine Minion is here

Oh, and I like the idea of including the uber builds as legends in a campaign setting. It leaves open the possibility of bringing them in at epic levels, which could be a fun challenge for the players. Of course, even at epic levels, they may be too much for a direct conforntation, which leads to the introduction of tactics for destruction similar to those used to destroy artifacts - or it might be a good opportunity to introduce ancient artifacts with anti-min/max powers.
I guess it depends. If the Kobold and the Cancer Mage both started out at level 1 in the same party, the Cancer Mage gets his loop off first, and has all of the time between level 3 and level 12 to increase his strength. But at level 12, I don't think it will take long for the kobold to catch up and surpass the Cancer Mage.

given any FIXED amount of time for the cancer mage to develop at 2 str a day, the kobold will always surpass him at some later point. In 1 day, the kobold gains at a rate of 27 years what the cancer mage gains. The cancer mage better commit genocide on all the scaled-ones before they get past level 11 or else he's screwed... For that matter, he'd better kill every living thing on the planet before it hits level 11... Actually, he'd better destroy every Shapechange scroll, too...
Each time Pun-pun grows to Colossal, he gains a +36 size bonus to strength. He then increases his psicrystal's strength score to match his own. Pun-pun then reverts to normal size, and increases his psicrystal's size to Colossal. His psicrystal's already impressive strength increases due to the size increase, and it transfers this new, higher strength score to Pun-pun. The transfers to strength are permanent, but they can continue doing it.

k, so i don't know the first thing about psionics & all that stuff, however, i do know something about size bonuses.....they come from size.

wouldn't he lose all his size bonus when he reverts back to normal kobold form?

also, something about bonuses in general.....there's a reason why there are so many different types of bonuses. it's called "stacking". you see, you can stack enhancement bonuses & size bonuses & competence bonuses together. however, if you have two different enhancement bonuses, such as a bull's strength(+4 str) & a belt of giant strength +6(+6 str), you end up with a total of +6 str because rather than stacking, you just take the bigger of the two. the same thing applies to all types of bonuses. including size bonuses. now, i'm not gonna sit here & do the math, but i'd bet my last dollar that you can't get +20,000 to your strength.
That's nice, horse, but completely irrelevant. All the information you need is right there in the text you quoted. He gives his psicrystal a new ability score. He doesn't just give the psicrystal a bonus to an ability score. Then the psicrystal gets a bonus and gives its new, higher ability score to Pun-pun. Once again, this isn't a bonus to Pun-pun's ability score, it's a permanent change to it.

Can I have your dollar? (Edit: Of course, it should really go to Khan.)
Yeah but I bet it cant throw the world!!!! Oh wait... it can. I think the first thing I would do after 12th level, and getting the appropriate stats(20000 seems plenty), would be to take some hulking hurler levels.
Yeah but I bet it cant throw the world!!!! Oh wait... it can. I think the first thing I would do after 12th level, and getting the appropriate stats(20000 seems plenty), would be to take some hulking hurler levels.

Why takes levels in the class when he can simply apply Manipulate Form to grant himself the class abilities?
this is why i don't allow psionics when i DM lol.......
Khan, congratulations. I want to cry. Or play a Fighter 20. CO after this seems, so, pointless. Damn, dirty kobolds.



That's my sentiment. I feel like giving up - and I haven't even gotten started yet!

since Pun-Pun is a deity, any abilities he grants himself CANNOT be duplicated by the Ethereal Doppelganger, which puts the kibosh on one of my favorite Artificer tricks.

Ummm, question; Why is Pun-Pun a diety? By virtue of his abilities? I don't have dieties and demigods, is the explanation in there?
Go back and reread the original post, evil--I missed it the first time, too. It's down near the bottom. He's given himself Divine Rank 0.
Just a note: "Furthermore, the alterations are automatically passed on to all the creature's offspring when it breeds with another of its unmodified kind."

I don't have Dragon 332, but anyone care to look up The Ecology of the Kobold for 3.5? I assume it has some info on kobold reproduction, like number of eggs, hatching time, etc. Then again, the particular numbers cannot matter much, on the assumption that we have a male kobold; we just need to know how far 20,010 Charisma gets you...what was someone saying about James Bond?

In whatever a kobold's gestation time is, we can produce a nigh-infinite number of these things. Is there a spell or power that lets you control your offspring? Kronos had a few kids significantly less powerful than Pun-Pun, and that caught up with him rather quickly.
This loop can be done easier with scrolls of Polymorph, PAO, and Ability Rip, and by turning yourself into a Tainted One instead of being a silly kobold.

Also, you guys know that the Manipulate ability only gives allows you to increase stats up to equal to your own stats. It says "Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1, or increased to a maximum equal to the sarrukh's corrosponding score."

So, unless you can get +20,000 to a stat via some other infinite loop, you can't give a +20k stat. The "wash and repeat" cycle in the first post doesn't work.

The infinite abilities is completely kosher though.
This loop can be done easier with scrolls of Polymorph, PAO, and Ability Rip, and by turning yourself into a Tainted One instead of being a silly kobold.

Also, you guys know that the Manipulate ability only gives stats up to equal to your own stats. So unlesss you can get +20,000 to a stat via some other infinite loop, you can't give a +20k stat.

The infinite abilities is completely kosher though.

Step 1: Decrease Psi Crystal to Fine
Step 2: Have Psi Crystal Increase your size to Collossal
Step 3: Grant Psi Crystal your current Stength Score
Step 4: Grant Psi Crystal your current Constitution Score (since it's a viper or whatever it has one)
Step 5: Have Psi Crystal grant you its current Dexterity Score
Step 6: Increase Psi Crystal to Collossal
Step 7: Have Psi Crystal Decrease you to Fine
Step 8: Have Psi Crystal grant you its current Strength Score
Step 9: Have Psi Crystal grant you its current Constitution Score
Step 10: Grant Psi Crystal your current Dexterity Score
Repeat as desired, this'll give you the loop for physical ability scores
I'm ruling every score transfer grant exactly everything that make it up when copied. Implicitedly it grant the enhancement bonus, racial bonus, size bonus, etc. The scaled critter get all this exactly. Explanation hmm perhaps the manipulate form ability is doing a genetic transfer plus copying what is going on in the donator's body. Now I'm trying to figure out how strong a medium size critter can get.
Step 1: Decrease Psi Crystal to Fine
Step 2: Have Psi Crystal Increase your size to Collossal
Step 3: Grant Psi Crystal your current Stength Score
Step 4: Grant Psi Crystal your current Constitution Score (since it's a viper or whatever it has one)
Step 5: Have Psi Crystal grant you its current Dexterity Score
Step 6: Increase Psi Crystal to Collossal
Step 7: Have Psi Crystal Decrease you to Fine
Step 8: Have Psi Crystal grant you its current Strength Score
Step 9: Have Psi Crystal grant you its current Constitution Score
Step 10: Grant Psi Crystal your current Dexterity Score
Repeat as desired, this'll give you the loop for physical ability scores

Well, that seems to work for physical stats. What's the loop for mental stats?
given any FIXED amount of time for the cancer mage to develop at 2 str a day, the kobold will always surpass him at some later point. In 1 day, the kobold gains at a rate of 27 years what the cancer mage gains.

Very true. That's what I get for not doing the math.
The cancer mage better commit genocide on all the scaled-ones before they get past level 11 or else he's screwed... For that matter, he'd better kill every living thing on the planet before it hits level 11... Actually, he'd better destroy every Shapechange scroll, too...

To that end, I hope he has something other than infinite strength to find everyone .
i'd bet my last dollar that you can't get +20,000 to your strength.

You're on.

....

Thanks for the buck .
Can I have your dollar? (Edit: Of course, it should really go to Khan.)

Nah... it's his last one. I'll let him keep it.
this is why i don't allow psionics when i DM lol.......

Nah... this just uses the rules for Polymorph. The only thing psionics contributes is that it can be done at a lower level with Metamorphic Transfer. All casters can be broken. You would have to ban the cleric, wizard, hulking hurler, artificer, the diplomacy skill, and much much more to completely protect your game from 'broken' builds.
Ummm, question; Why is Pun-Pun a diety? By virtue of his abilities? I don't have dieties and demigods, is the explanation in there?

As Caelic pointed out, Pun-pun granted himself the ability, as it is seen in the Special Qualities section of the Abomination monsters in the Epic Level Handbook. Sorry, I sort of threw it in there at the last moment.
Just a note: "Furthermore, the alterations are automatically passed on to all the creature's offspring when it breeds with another of its unmodified kind."

I totally forgot. Very true. Whenever Pun-pun has a child, he sires a hero deity kobold of infinite power. Hmmm... we'll have to try for some variation of the Slaad Brooder's 10th level ability. Not that it really matters.
This loop can be done easier with scrolls of Polymorph, PAO, and Ability Rip, and by turning yourself into a Tainted One instead of being a silly kobold.

By all means, throw up the build. If there are more efficient ways to do it, show them. Do you mean 'quicker' though? I don't think the methods used are relatively difficult, at least not for infinite power.
Well, that seems to work for physical stats. What's the loop for mental stats?

You only need to increase your strength score to 20,010. Then, as I explained in the original post, you use the Bellflower Tattoo ability and the Void Release ability to increase your other scores to tremendous heights, using Manipulate Form to seal the deal. So...

Your Strength is 20,010. You use Bellflower to add your Charisma modifier as a bonus to your Intelligence. But instead of adding your Charisma modifier, you use Void Release to instead add your Strength bonus (+10,000) to your Intelligence. Your Intelligence is now 10,000. You increase your psicrystal's Intelligence to match your own. Dismiss the Bellflower effect. Your psicrystal increases your Intelligence to match his (which is 10,000) using Manipulate Form. Repeat with all abilities, as many times as you want.

Sorry for all of the quotes, but I've been at work most of the day so I didn't have time to keep up.

If anyone knows of ways to improve upon this, or to reach the same results quicker with a different build, by all means post it. I'm not sure about the Divine Minion, I will have to wait to get my Unearthed Arcana back for the Wildhsape Druid.
Manipulate Form.. it stats that it can modify the form of a Scaled One native to Toril. Yes you may be that creature but that doesn't mean your native to the place. Also how would your character know about such a creature and what Supernatural power it has?
Hmm. Khan--suppose, for a second, that a ruling came down extablishing that the Sarrukh could not pass on stat bonuses granted by spells or items (including indirectly-granted bonuses like size bonuses.)

How far could you take the build with that limitation?
Hmm. Khan--suppose, for a second, that a ruling came down extablishing that the Sarrukh could not pass on stat bonuses granted by spells or items (including indirectly-granted bonuses like size bonuses.)

How far could you take the build with that limitation?

i imagine that he could have the highest ability score of any creature listed in the game applied to all his stats (using metamorph to turn his psicrystal into the creature, getting the ability score, and using the void / bellflower technique to apply to every stat)... sorry for answering, but he said he's been busy
i imagine that he could have the highest ability score of any creature listed in the game applied to all his stats (using metamorph to turn his psicrystal into the creature, getting the ability score, and using the void / bellflower technique to apply to every stat)... sorry for answering, but he said he's been busy

That, or he starts to use the Kensai's Power Surge ability. There are many ways to temporarily boost stats that involve neither spells nor items.
Manipulate Form.. it stats that it can modify the form of a Scaled One native to Toril. Yes you may be that creature but that doesn't mean your native to the place. Also how would your character know about such a creature and what Supernatural power it has?

Just need to be able to make a Know (nature) check of .... 29, I think.
Manipulate Form.. it stats that it can modify the form of a Scaled One native to Toril. Yes you may be that creature but that doesn't mean your native to the place. Also how would your character know about such a creature and what Supernatural power it has?

El_Machinae is right, a Knowledge check would do it. As far as being native to Toril, well, the build is Realm specific so... chances are that you are playing in the Realms and happen to be native to the Realms.

Hmm. Khan--suppose, for a second, that a ruling came down extablishing that the Sarrukh could not pass on stat bonuses granted by spells or items (including indirectly-granted bonuses like size bonuses.)

Why?

...

Does such a ruling exist .

Seriously though... I would have to say class abilities like Rage/Frenzy/Berserk, or the Kensai's Power Surge (which was a good call, I used that in the ECL 60 Kill a God Challenge). I guess Festering Anger could work as well, although I would loathe to use it. All of those methods would take considerably longer though, but one can be patient for the power of infinity.

Perhaps granting Pun-pun or his psicrystal the Great Strength epic feat a *tedious* number of times to start the base for the Bellflower/Void Release combo. That would directly increase Pun-pun's strength just like a normal level boost to an ability score.

Hmm... I'll keep thinking on it. Did you intend to only exclude spells and items, or was your intention to exclude *any* temporary increases to an ability score from being transferred? I suppose any of the epic feats that improve ability scores will do, but in that case, Pun-pun could increase his scores only up to about 9600 each day (assuming no sleep). So assuming temporary boosts couldn't be transferred, it would take Pun-pun about 2 weeks to get all of his scores up to 20,010.
but one can be patient for the power of infinity.

Actually, when dealing with Infinity power, time is the most important aspect. The faster you start, or the more efficiently you grow, the better. In a world where "there's always something bigger" you need to get going as fast as possible to put more and more creatures beneath your notice.

You can tell from my links that I'm somewhat of a futurist - but I'd like us to advance much faster than we are.

Now, RAW (and a conservative reading) I think you can only give ONE modification using the Sarrukh power. It doesn't say only one modification per use, it says only one. When an example is given of making multiple modifications, it doesn't say anything about the number of Sarrukh involved.
Actually, when dealing with Infinity power, time is the most important aspect. The faster you start, or the more efficiently you grow, the better. In a world where "there's always something bigger" you need to get going as fast as possible to put more and more creatures beneath your notice.

You can tell from my links that I'm somewhat of a futurist - but I'd like us to advance much faster than we are.

Now, RAW (and a conservative reading) I think you can only give ONE modification using the Sarrukh power. It doesn't say only one modification per use, it says only one. When an example is given of making multiple modifications, it doesn't say anything about the number of Sarrukh involved.

If that is so, the same effect can still be had through breeding kobolds together, each with a different modified trait.

That would, of course, take much longer than the current estimate, though.
Now, RAW (and a conservative reading) I think you can only give ONE modification using the Sarrukh power. It doesn't say only one modification per use, it says only one. When an example is given of making multiple modifications, it doesn't say anything about the number of Sarrukh involved.

Well, the relevant text is:
... With a successful touch attack, it can cause one alteration of its choice in the target creature's body.

I don't think it is as clear cut as you think it. All that says to me is that you can only change one aspect if you happen to succeed on your touch attack, as opposed to making 4 different alterations with one use of the ability.

I could see it both ways, but this build obviously uses my interpretation .
It was the most desperate of rules lawyering on my part - I can certainly read it both ways too (though, this also means that you can give infinite tentacle attacks to your minion)
Khan,

Regarding my spells per round record. The second page of the thread has the official record where I actually stat out where all the spells are coming from (recent revelations about syncrhonicity mean I have to update it). However, I suggest the following for Pun-Pun:

Give him the metamind's font of power ability
Give him time stop at will
Have the initial build have synchronicity and twin power.

Once this is all in place (it takes 2 rounds I believe) do the following:

Activate the font:

1) Twin Synchronicity
2) Twin Synchronicity (using one of the readied actions)
3) Time Stop - during this, refocus on rounds one and two, then wait for any additional rounds twiddling your thumbs.
4) do something cool (standard action)
5) go to 1

when this is done you have two readied standard actions (one to do what you want, one to start the loop again) and have spent no power points, not lost any focuses, nor used any abilities that are not at will. In this fashion you gain infinite actions, with which to do all of your power ups in the span of 6 seconds. Repeating this later will give you the ability to cast an infinite number of spells, manifest and infinite number of powers, pick your nose an infinite number of times, or any other "within 6 seconds" record you would like to break with your kobold monstrosity. It also shortens his powerup time from days upon days, to a mere 18 seconds (2 prep, one infinite actions)
DH I love you.

So... basically, if you ever fight a 12th level Kobold psion, finish him off. Don't ever let him escape to return later. Because in 18 seconds, you're toast.

I'm going to edit the first post to take note of this.
Just for kicks... Pun-pun can activate his Font of Power ability and make it permanent thanks to Alter Reality. Meaning he never has to ever pay for his powers... ever.
Pun-pun dismisses his Sarruhk form, and orders the psicrystal to grant him the Manipulate Form ability, using Manipulate Form of course. Since Pun-pun is a pathetic Kobold, he qualifies as a Scaled One. Pun-pun now has the strongest ability in the game.

How would i go about getting around this if i was Human or some other race that doesn't qulaifies as a Scaled One?