Rules you didn't realize

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Raises hand...

Out of my whole gaming group (6 PCs total), the first time we sat down to toss dice in the 4e world only one (My wife) correctly used the + Con score to determine HP. The rest of us just added our Con modifier. Out of the six we had a total of 3 knocked down due to less than 0 HP and one of those three, after being healed, got knocked down again and died.

My wife was a proud woman after that encounter when she realized what had happend.

Tony...
PHB lists Drink a potion as a minor action, but our DM makes us ready the potion with a minor action and then drink it with another minor. This means taking two turns or having to swap a move or a standard for a minor to do it in one turn. Is that how it is supposed to work?

Yes. Drinking the potion assumes you already have it in hand. You need to draw it using a minor action first. (Quickdraw allows you to draw it as a free action).
PHB lists Drink a potion as a minor action, but our DM makes us ready the potion with a minor action and then drink it with another minor. This means taking two turns or having to swap a move or a standard for a minor to do it in one turn. Is that how it is supposed to work?

Minor to pull it out of a bag, minor to drink. Unless you get quick draw, in which case you can draw it with the same action you use to use it.
Also, it's a standard action to equip a shield (PHB 289)
PHB lists Drink a potion as a minor action, but our DM makes us ready the potion with a minor action and then drink it with another minor. This means taking two turns or having to swap a move or a standard for a minor to do it in one turn. Is that how it is supposed to work?

Probably thinking that you aren't always keeping a potion in hand. It would then be a minor action to pull it from your pack.
When you used different words than RAW, you presented an interpretation that can be misconstrued as meaning "you have to wait 18 hours to take another extended rest."

Forgive me if I missed your point, but I did not understand the purpose of your post. I used both RAW and the implication of it:
---
'Per PHB p.263:
"An extended rest is at least 6 hours long."
"After you finish an extended rest, you have to wait 12 hours before you can begin another one."


This basically means max once every 18 hrs.'
---

I did not think it could be misconstrued, but if it could, I did not understand the how rephrasing the middle part alleviated that.
So basicly 18 or 12 depending on if you count from the start of the first to the start of the second, or from the end of the first to the start of the second.
Still ends up the same amount of hours right ?

Anyone want to take a stab at this one for me ?
Slightly related, I havent found any rules on sleep depravity other than there must be 6 hours of sleep in a cycle of 24 hours, otherwise the next extended rest has no effect.

So basicly PC's can stay awake forever
Doesnt seem right..

This seems to suggest I can be awake for two weeks straight, by simply forfieting my next extended rest.
Sounds very odd to me, but is there anything in the rules about sleep deprevation, or will I have to houserule it if it comes up ?
I am White/Green
Back to the powers and effects:

Mountain Breaking Blow Fighter Attack 17
You land a ringing blow, then push your enemy back without
giving other nearby enemies the opportunity to strike you.
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the
target 3 squares.

Effect: After the attack, you can shift the same distance you
pushed the target.
You must end your move adjacent to
the target.



If I miss how can this EFFECT still happen?? I only push the target if I hit it.

That rule that all effects happen even on a miss doesn't make sense. This effect clearly doesn't happen after missing.

Where am I wrong?
The effect does happen after missing, you just shift zero squares.
So me shifting Zero squares qualifies as the EFFECT happening...

PHB lists Drink a potion as a minor action, but our DM makes us ready the potion with a minor action and then drink it with another minor. This means taking two turns or having to swap a move or a standard for a minor to do it in one turn. Is that how it is supposed to work?

No, he's adding. It's his campaign...unless he assuming that all potions are hidden away in backpacks and such, and you have to first pull them out, and then drink them.

Which kind of make sense. But I could see requiring 2 minors to just drink a potion a death sentence.
Yes. Drinking the potion assumes you already have it in hand. You need to draw it using a minor action first. (Quickdraw allows you to draw it as a free action).

As part of the action that uses the potion, not as a free action. Typically, won't make a difference, of course, but...
Which kind of make sense. But I could see requiring 2 minors to just drink a potion a death sentence.

It's costly, yes. But the important thing is that drinking a potion doesn't cost your most important action: your standard action. So you can still do something meaningful on the turn you drink a potion.

Or you get Quick Draw.
So me shifting Zero squares qualifies as the EFFECT happening...


The effect hooks into the hit. If you miss the hit, you shift 0 squares; you don't go anywhere but it still happens. They did that so missing isn't a free shift.

The idea of that power is to push the enemy away but still be on it's ass. If you don't push it back, you can't chase after it.

Working as intended. Now stop over-thinking this; it's preventing you from thinking.
They really should have just added that to the Hit line... :P
It would have been much less confusing for people.

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It allows for design space. A feat or PP special ability or utility power could exist that allowed you to push someone on a miss. Now the effect allows you to follow up, even after a miss.

-SYB
  • You may take no more than one every 18 hours.
  • You may take up to two in a single day.
  • You may take second one after only 12 hours.

I think the last one is the key factor, or more accurately (as has already been posted) "After you finish an extended rest, you have to wait 12 hours before you can begin another one.".

Several races only require 4 hours for an extended rest (although generally it is 6), so their full cycle is only 16 hours.

I don't have my books to check, but I think it is also stated somewhere that you can do an extended rest once per day, although that leaves open the question of what the definition of a "day" is.

e.g. If your "day" is defined as midnight to midnight (with a 24 hour clock), then an elf (eladrin?) can take an extended rest at 09:00-13:00 and then again from 01:00-05:00, but they can't extended rest at 01:00-05:00 and then again from 17:00-21:00.

Alternatively if day is defined as dawn to dawn (say 06:00-06:00), then [01:00-05:00, 17:00-21:00] is okay, but [09:00-13:00, 01:00-05:00] is not.

If you throw away the common conception of day (hey, maybe some pocket planar realm has a 6 hour rotation) then in three 24-hour periods an eladrin can have four extended rests (four daily power usages).
Ok, what other rules have you all come across that, in the end, were right out there in the open and pretty obvious when it came down to it?

Generally I have been making notes during games and then later on looking up the specific rules.

Note sure what number we are up to: (I think #15 was max sneak attack damage on crit, #16 was cover/concealment and #17 was standard action to equip shield)

#18: Temp hp don't make you conscious -- if you are at 0 (or less) and receive Temp hp, you are still unconscious. Came up during a game with a Warlock exactly on 0 and receiving 1 Temp hp from pact boon (GM ruled okay, but I looked it up later).

#19: When you reduce a monster to 0 hp you get to choose if you either knock it unconscious or kill it. (i.e. instead of nonlethal damage).

#20: Ready an action is an Immediate Reaction (occurs after, one immediate per turn), although your initiative is set to immediately before the creature that triggered. (Both Ready and Delay are largely similar to 3.x, however I played some games where the GM ran it diferently).

#21: Two-handed weapon now probably (*1) means only the category, not how you wield it, e.g. for power attack. This is the reverse of 3.x, where how you wielded it was generally important.

#22: Defenses add 1/2 level, and so AC automatically goes up.


I also ran across several already mentioned, e.g. magic item daily powers.


Note *1: Probably, because the rules are unclear enough that there are several ongoing discussions about both sides of this situation. Please see other threads for more information.
#22: clerics and pals don't need to wield their implements like wizards etc. They can just hang them round their neck. Cue the party cleric swapping quick draw for shield proficiency!
#23 expanded spellbook feat gives you an extra daily but not an extra utility per level. Cue disappointed wizard pc..never assume check ;)
#23 expanded spellbook feat gives you an extra daily but not an extra utility per level. Cue disappointed wizard pc..never assume check ;)

Count me as missing that one...

Always a GM, never a player (not really but sometimes feels like it).

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One solution to having to use two minor actions to remove, then drink a potion:

If you have a potion at the beginning of combat, take it out and hold it.

Times you couldn't do this: When wielding two weapons, a two handed weapon, a large shield and a weapon, an implement and a weapon/shield.

Times you could use it but just not really realize that you can: When carrying a weapon and a light shield (And I quote, "You can still use that [shield] hand to hold another item, to climb, or the like"). As a wizard/warlock with an implement in one hand and no weapon in the other (True, you would lose the ability to gain combat advantage with no held weapon, with the exception of a staff but should you, as a wizard really be looking to flank someone, anyway?)

I just thought of this myself, inspired by this dialogue on potions, so if there are errors in my logic, please someone let me know.

Tony...


Addendum: Hmmm, maybe I should include this, as well...

#24 When using a light shield, one is able to hold items and even climb and still use it. Sounds like that sword arm may not be limited to only holding a torch or sunrod.
Times you could use it but just not really realize that you can

Also, a cleric or paladin doesn't need to wield their holy symbol (just wear it), so may have a free they didn't realise.

(True, you would lose the ability to gain combat advantage with no held weapon, with the exception of a staff but should you, as a wizard really be looking to flank someone, anyway?)

Yes, but providing combat advantage to someone else may be very useful. (even if of little use to the wizard themselves).

#24 When using a light shield, one is able to hold items and even climb and still use it. Sounds like that sword arm may not be limited to only holding a torch or sunrod.

I also used it for the load action on a hand crossbow (still requires two hands to load, even thought it only requires one to attack with).
No, he's adding. It's his campaign...unless he assuming that all potions are hidden away in backpacks and such, and you have to first pull them out, and then drink them.

Which kind of make sense. But I could see requiring 2 minors to just drink a potion a death sentence.

Retrieving an item costs a minor action. Your DM isn't adding anything--he's just assuming you don't walk around with a potion in your hand.

(True, you would lose the ability to gain combat advantage with no held weapon, with the exception of a staff but should you, as a wizard really be looking to flank someone, anyway?)

Not true; you can make a melee basic attack with an unarmed attack, and you can make an unarmed attack with your head, elbow, or knee, so you can provide flanking even if both hands are occupied with non-weapons.

t~
Not true; you can make a melee basic attack with an unarmed attack, and you can make an unarmed attack with your head, elbow, or knee, so you can provide flanking even if both hands are occupied with non-weapons.

I call that the "You-can-always-kick-a-guy-in-the-nads"-rule.
I call that the "You-can-always-kick-a-guy-in-the-nads"-rule.

But isn't unarmed attacks against AC?

Note, NADS = Non-AC DefenseS ^_^

TBP
You're trying to hard to interpret it. "Many powers" refers to those powers that have an "Effect:" line. "Effect:" lines always happen, whether or not you hit or miss. "Miss:" lines are different because they only happen on a miss.

Basically:

Hit: happens on a hit
Miss: happens on a miss
Effect: happens on a hit or miss

So why do we need to roll for attack in this case? Shouldn't it just have the Target and Effect line and no Attack line?

Webs of Darkness Drow Racial Power
Inky tendrils of solidified darkness leap from your fingertip and bind your enemies.
Encounter
Standard Action Close blast 3
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence + 4 vs. Reflex, Wisdom + 4 vs. Reflex, or Charisma + 4 vs. Reflex
Increase to +6 bonus at 21st level
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, the target is slowed and all creatures have concealment against the target.
That looks like a typo.
So why do we need to roll for attack in this case? Shouldn't it just have the Target and Effect line and no Attack line?

Webs of Darkness Drow Racial Power
Inky tendrils of solidified darkness leap from your fingertip and bind your enemies.
Encounter
Standard Action Close blast 3
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence + 4 vs. Reflex, Wisdom + 4 vs. Reflex, or Charisma + 4 vs. Reflex
Increase to +6 bonus at 21st level
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, the target is slowed and all creatures have concealment against the target.

That's from the latest Dragon article, isn't it? Looks like something to be corrected in the compiled version. That effect line should probably be a hit line. Probably just the author being still unfamiliar with the exact rules and thinking that since there is no damage it gets the effect heading, or just a simple typo.
Come to think of it, another rule I didn't realize was that you get to max out sneak attack damage on a crit. I had no idea.

I thought the ruling was that you don't get max sneak attack (or quarry) damage on a crit.
I thought the ruling was that you don't get max sneak attack (or quarry) damage on a crit.

Extra Damage: Magic weapons and implements, as well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage you deal when you score a critical hit. If this extra damage is a die roll, it’s not automatically maximum damage; you add the result of the roll.

And it doesn't say anything special about sneak attack critting when other forms of extra damage do not, so you are correct, sneak attack does not max on a crit.
And it doesn't say anything special about sneak attack critting when other forms of extra damage do not, so you are correct, sneak attack does not max on a crit.

Actually, that's backwards... only dice that are added as a result of it being a critical hit are not maximized. Dice from Hunter's Quarry, Sneak Attack, or Warlock's Curse are not dependent upon a critical hit, therefore are maximized.
Extra Damage: Magic weapons and implements, as well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage you deal when you score a critical hit. If this extra damage is a die roll, it’s not automatically maximum damage; you add the result of the roll.

Note that this paragraph is referring specifically to the magic weapon crit damage. It's clarifying that the +1d6 you get on a crit from a magic weapon is not maxed.

I don't have the PHB to thumb through right now, but I was of the understanding that all damage that wasn't added as a direct result of critting was maxed, which would include sneak attack damage.

EDIT: woops, just a little too slow...
Right you are; it's in the FAQ. We've been playing that one wrong all along. :P
Dice from Hunter's Quarry, Sneak Attack, or Warlock's Curse are not dependent upon a critical hit, therefore are maximized.

Yup. All dice (that aren't critical-only) are maximized.

You still roll high-crit, magical weapon crit and other crit-only dice (kinda obvious, otherwise making them dice would be redundant).

This is, of course, completely different from 3.x (where sneak attack did not get the crit multiplier) -- which is kinda the point of this thread.

Right you are; it's in the FAQ. We've been playing that one wrong all along. :P

As the subject says "rules you didn't realize" -- new game, new rules (but it is hard not to bring across baggage from earlier versions).
(True, you would lose the ability to gain combat advantage with no held weapon, with the exception of a staff but should you, as a wizard really be looking to flank someone, anyway?)

Yes, but providing combat advantage to someone else may be very useful. (even if of little use to the wizard themselves).

Ah, the wonders of new rules.

Not only did Orukal fall back into 3.x-ism, assuming you actually need to be holding a weapon to get flanking combat advantage, but I fell straight into the trap alongside him, arguing that it may be useful to supply CA to your allies.

Of, course CA happens whenever you flank, no matter what you are holding in your hands. Provided you can actually attack (e.g. not stunned), then you can make an unarmed "punch, kick, elbow, knee or even head butt" (p.216)

Go those headbutting wizards with an orb in one hand and a potion in the other.

I like this thread.
sgryphon and tiornys got me, and sgryphon figured it out right before me. Yea, I did fall into the pit trap of 3.x. I had a hunch/feeling this morning about flanking and had to check it out myself.

Unless someone can correct this, I think I have #25:

You do not need to hold a weapon in order to obtain combat advantage through a flank. You can be armed or unarmed. (PHB 285)
Not one that I missed, but one I have to correct people on constantly, so I assume a lot of people have missed it:

#25: You don't need an implement just to use a power with the Implement keyword, regardless of your class. Not having an implement has no ill effects, apart from Wizards losing the benefits of Arcane Implement Mastery.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
It's acctually once every 12 hours, isn't it ?

Slightly related, I havent found any rules on sleep depravity other than there must be 6 hours of sleep in a cycle of 24 hours, otherwise the next extended rest has no effect.

So basicly PC's can stay awake forever
Doesnt seem right..

On a similar vein there is nothign relating to sleeping in armor. I houseruled that you can rest in hide or lower armor, anything else will give you a short rest benefit but not an extended rest benefit
"Sleep depravity", by the way, makes it sound like you're asking about molesting people in their (or perhaps, your) sleep. The word you want is deprivation.

Sorry, I keep seeing it being quoted over and over and it just bugs me.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
As the subject says "rules you didn't realize" -- new game, new rules (but it is hard not to bring across baggage from earlier versions).

For us (or at least for me) this wasn't so much a question of falling back on 3.5 as confusion regarding what counted as dice "normally rolled", since both SA and HQ are "once per turn" effects that you choose when to trigger. Would you "normally" roll the sneak attack dice on the attack you just got a crit on? Perhaps not, if I was using a multi-target attack and there was a more important target to come.

Anyway, Now I Know!