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8 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 12:46PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2012
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Why are you saying that it cannot be held indefinately? Why, by the rules, if you spend 1 pp on Hammer, and fail to touch someone with it that round, would the spell end?
That seems like saying that if a lvl 1 Seer fails to hit on the round he casts destiny dissonance, the spell ends. They both have durations measured in rounds, they are both touch powers, and they both have targets of 'Creature touched'
You can't just 'say' it's one of the exceptions to those rules.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 1:18PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Apr 20, 2008
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It's not at all like Destiny Dissonance. In the description, Destiny Dissonance says: "Your mere touch grants your foe an imperfect, unfocused glimpse of the many possible futures in store. Unaccustomed to and unable to process the information, the subject becomes sickened for 1 round per level of the manifester. " It's pretty clear that the duration refers to what happens after the touch spell takes place. Take a look instead at the description of Hammer: "This power charges your touch with the force of a sledgehammer. A successful melee touch attack deals 1d8points of bludgeoning damage. This damage is not increased or decreased by your Strength modifier. AugmentFor every additional power point you spend, this power’s duration increases by 1 round." There's nothing with a duration in it. It seems fairly obvious that if you do a 1PP hammer and don't hit anything for a round, the power is done. The whole purpose of augmenting this spell is to let you make multiple attacks. So, say, if you have +6 BAB you could cast a 2PP Hammer and possibly deal up to 4d8 damage with touch attacks over the course of a couple rounds. Here's an important question that your interpretation of how Hammer works does not answer: What, in your mind, does Augmenting Hammer do? EDIT: Hm, ok I guess I could see Hammer dealing 1d8/round, but that seems a LOT weirder to me than it buffing you for 1 round / pp. I say this because the short description of Hammer is this: "Hammer A: Melee touch attack deals 1d8/round." Which might imply once you touch him once, it deals 1d8/round until the duration expires. I find this very unlikely compared to my interpretation, but I get how you could have that as your interpretation. Basically, this is how I think Hammer works: you cast it, and it lets you make touch attacks for a time equal to its duration, kind of like Produce Flame. Once it's over, it's over. This to me seems to be the most sensible and works best with how it goes with Augmentation.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 1:54PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2012
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By my interpretation, Hammer's duration starts the as soon as you make your first successful touch attack because it has a target line reading 'creature touched.' The spell targets a creature and is a touch spell. It acts on the creature, even if the description reads more like it acts on the caster, and as a touch spell, you may hold the charge instead of just whiffing as if it were a scorching ray. And as the Rules of the Game article says The header takes precedence: None of the information in a spell's descriptive text is intended to contradict what's shown in the spell header, though it often helps modify it in some way
As to what Hammer actually does: Unaugmented, it allows you to make touch attacks that deal 1d8 damage and is unchanged by your Str mod. If you opt instead to make only unarmed attacks, it adds 1d8 to w/e damage you'd normally do, just as any other touch spell, provided you hit. The number of times you deal this damage in this single round is only limited by the number of times you can make success attacks against the opponents, since the spell itself has a duration instead of being instantaneous. For this one round, you are considered holding the charge of Hammer.
Augmented, it still does not begin until at least one successful touch or attack has been made. As soon as one has been made, its duration begins. Each round, you may make a touch attack or just make normal attacks as above. When the spell duration ends, it ends. As long as the duration has not expired, you are considered holding the charge of Hammer.
At least, thats how I see it.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 2:32PM
#24
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The problem is that the header text is insufficient to be clear. A "touch spell" is typically one which has a range of "touch", but what about spells you cast on allies? You can't hold the charge on those. I would say that the rules on holding a charge apply only to a given subset of spells with a range of "touch".
Pinning down the specifics is where it gets tricky BUT there is an obvious difference in that Hammer's duration is not the duration it affects someone else for, but the duration it affects you for. Though Produce Flames does not have a range of touch, in this respect they clearly work the same way. Meanwhile, a spell which has a duration of effect on a foe (or an instantaneous duration) can be held since the touch is just the delivery mechanism.
In essence, I'd say there's a difference between what we call a "touch spell" and a power like Hammer which grants you bonus damage on a touch. It's effectively a self-buff; I think the "touch" range part is confusing - but compare with something like Telekinesis which can be used multiple times. The range if refering to each of those uses, not to the spell itself necessarily.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 3:09PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2012
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But you -can- hold the charge on spells you cast on allies. If you don't touch an ally within the time frame, you certainly could hold the charge on the spell and wait for another round to make a touch attack(that would do no damage, but still be a standard action) that would then complete casting the spell on that ally. It's just not usually done. So I disagree. I think the header text is fully sufficient. The problem is the descriptive text describes something entirely different from what one should expect, given the header. But the header takes precedence. Even if I think its silly and makes little sense. >_> I think it works similarly to Produce Flame if produce flame only made normal touch attacks, yes. But Hammer is still a touch spell and I still think it's bound by the wierd rules, even if it's effectively a self-buff and similar to many things that aren't bound by the touch spell rules. They aren't touch spells. EDIT: I find it interesting to note that, upon checking in the written handbook, Hammer is not a touch ranged spell...only on the online SRD. Strange. I should have thought of that earlier from all the 'hammer is not a touch spell' comments from Telin and Yitzi. >_> EDIT2:...and then they released errata that changed it to what it is in the online SRD. The power made sense -before- the errata -.-
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8 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 3:49PM
#26
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I think though that just because it has a range of touch, it is not necessarily a "touch spell" as per say. It just means that it only works at touch range. Sloppy wording, given the connotations, but what most likely happened was that when writing the errata, they only meant to change the activation to swift and forgot that the range wasn't actually touch.
Also note that Hammer is distinct in that it allows unlimited touches. Thus, the effect is governed by duration not touches, and so it doesn't really make sense for the time only to start counting down after the first hit.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 3:59PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2012
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what most likely happened was that when writing the errata, they only meant to change the activation to swift and forgot that the range wasn't actually touch.
Personally, I'm inclined to think something like that happened too.
As such, I'm done arguing about it. I stand by my statement that, by the rules, if it's a touch ranged spell that has a target, you would need to hold the charge on it after the duration starts and that the duration wouldn't start until you successfully touch someone. But I don't think that's what was meant when they re-wrote the power, and don't think that's the way it should be played.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 6:56PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2010
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Typical wizards, having a good thing and then throwing something random in there. Flame blade had a similiar probelm where we were trying to figure out what being wielded like a scimitar meant. Archaic flavour text from 1E confuses what shoulod be a clear mechanic in that respect. I think majority opinion has the spell as more of a buff spell like flame blade and produce flames, as per the original writing, and then when they rewrote it, they goofed the range, and that it still counts more as a buff than a holding charge type spell.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 7:50PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2006
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Are we looking at different srds?
Hammer
As it happens we are, because I prefer to use d20srd.org, but that doesn't affect things.
Note that I compared it to Produce Flame, which uses similar language (as it is also a touch attack) and has in the past been ruled to not follow the rules of holding a touch spell.
Why are you saying that it cannot be held indefinately? Why, by the rules, if you spend 1 pp on Hammer, and fail to touch someone with it that round, would the spell end?
Because it's a 1 round duration? Same as if a level 1 wizard cast Grease, it would end after the round regardless of who it affected.
And Destiny Dissonance is different, as it has a target of Creature Touched, i.e. the spell activates when you touch the creature and therefore the count starts from there.
I think that's the real difference: When the target is the creature touched, then it's a spell delivered by touch (for short, a touch spell) and has all the rules of holding the charge, whereas if the target is unlisted or yourself, then it's a spell that creates a touch-attack ability, so holding the charge is not relevant.
Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but don't like excessive splatbook use? Come visit the Core Coliseum today, and give it a try.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 8:33PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2012
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I failed my roll to not respond. >_>
In any case, after I typed that, I went looking at other SRDs to see if any of them listed Hammer as anything other than a touch spell, and ended up using d20 as a reference myself after. It didn't list Hammer as not being touch, but it -does- list it as having a target line, which it should not. I didn't notice it, my bad. :p
But yes, as I just said, if it were a touch spell with a target(just like destiny dissonance), I would argue that the duration should not start unless it has hit said target at least once, regardless of the descriptive text says(unless that text basically says to ignore that) since both the touch range and target are in the header.
Also, Produce Flame is range 0ft, not touch. That's not the same thing. Thus, you couldn't hold it's charge anyway.
In any case, I already revised my opinion on how hammer should be run to what you're saying in the post above yours. We're on the same side! :D
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