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When you have hammer up, does it count as holding a touch spell?  I'm split on it, since it has a specific duration as opposed to just being held until used, but it still a touch spell.

I haven't found anything in the CoCo rules to specify exactly, but

Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

So, what I tend to focus on when reading this, is this part:

...you can hold the charge(postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinately...

...so you're considered holding the charge of a touch spell as long as the spell has not already discharged. Once you've discharged the spell you're no longer holding the charge.

So what does it mean to discharge a spell?

Imbue with Spell Ability
Evocation
Level: Clr 4, Magic 4
...
Duration: Permanent until discharged (D)...

So, given that, I'd say discharging a spell would mean to end it. If that is the case, I'd say you'd need to hold the charge of hammer for as long as it would be active given however much pp you spent on it...though, to me, that still feels wrong.

My 2 cents  

EDIT: Then again...

Mage’s Faithful Hound
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 5.
...
Duration: 1 hour/caster level or until discharged, then 1 round/caster level; see text

So yeah. I dunno what specifically discharged is supposed to mean, so...eh. 

I would say it is likely not a touch spell/power.

Take a look at some examples:

Chill Touch - Range: Touch
Shocking Grasp - Range: Touch
Produce Flame - Range: 0ft (note that produce flame is not considered a touch spell and is not lost when another spell is cast)
Hammer - Range: Personal
Dissipating Touch - Range: Touch

The item about holding a touch range spell is specific to the actual line in the spell/power about the range.

Range: Touch

The ony problem is that is is listed as range, touch.  It is the duration line that is different as it doesn't discharge like like Protasis was saying, so you aren't really holding a charge to lose.

Yeah, it's unclear, but I'd say that it's in essence a buff which affects you, lasting only 1 round (plus augmentation).

You can't just say it doesn't discharge if we don't have a definition for what discharge means. >_>
Just because it acts differently than other touch spells, doesn't mean that it doesn't discharge.

Lots of different spells discharge, not just touch spells or spells with instantaneous duration. Even spells with durations otherwise measured in minutes or rounds can discharge. Contingency, Dispel Evil, Explosive Runes, False Life, Fire Trap, Lesser Geas, Glyph of Warding, Guidance, Imbue with Spell Ability, Instant Summons, Mage's Faithful Hound, Magic Mouth, Magic Stone, Moment of Prescience, Protection from Arrows, Protection from Energy, Refuge, Secret Chest, Sepia Snake Sigil, Spellstaff, Stoneskin, and Whispering Wind all discharge...it's just what exactly that means which is a problem.

If I were in a game irl, I might argue that it should be treated more like Claw of Energy, which is what Fred is describing. It has ups in downs in direct power-level comparisons, and personally, I think Claw of Energy is somewhat lacking in the power department in any case/

But that's in real game. It just doesn't read in a way that I'd confidently say, rules as written, that it doesn't discharge like any other spell, or that you wouldn't have to hold the charge like any other touch spell, rather than a personal range spell like Claw of Energy.

EDIT: Actually, scratch the power-level thing...Hammer is a swift action to cast, which would pretty much make it outright better than claw of energy in almost all situations if you don't have to hold the charge. >_>

Claw of Energy is not the best power in the game.  The bif difference,t hough, is that it lasts longer for the PP.  A 15th level character would have to spend 8 extra PP and still wouldn't get the bonus on crits, though yeah, ahmmer is better overall.  However, several power are like that; compare vigour with Body adjustment.

That all said, the problem is that to discharge, there is a contingency fopr the spell ending early, often either being used x times or taking x amount of damage.  Hammer has no such contingency for ending.

This is true. But, in regards to contingencies, the same can be said for all the touch spells. If the rule for holding the charge of a touch spell didn't exist, there would be no reason to think touch spells discharge at all, as far as the game word is concerned. There is no contingency ever listed for exactly when any of the damaging touch spells discharge. Yet they all do.(besides maybe this one)

If all touch spells discharge, with no real contingency for exactly when that happens beyond 'at some point after you first touch your opponent after casting the spell,' how do we say exactly if or when this specific touch spell discharges?

Without something to point directly to the contrary, I'd think it would be the same as every other touch spell listed in regards to 'if' it discharges. If we then assume that it does discharge, I'd look at the protection from energy spell, and assume it wouldn't discharge until it ends.

I think the closest thing to Hammer is probably Produce Flame, which you also can't hold the charge on. Admittedly, I don't recall that that has a range of "touch", but it works in much the same way regardless (it does have a ranged version, after all).

I would say Flame blade is closer as produce flame reduces the duration with every attack, so it does discharge in practice if not in name.  Flame Blade doesn't discharge; it just ends.  Most touch spells, on the other hand, discharge on touching, hence the instantanious duration.

But neither Flame Blade nor Produce Flame is a touch range spell. Flame Blade creates a blade that you can make touch attacks with, but it's not the same as a touch spell, mechanically or thematically. It makes sense that you wouldn't hold the charge on flame blade.

Yes, flame blade doesn't discharge. Yes, most touch spells end up effectively discharging on touching, but the only reason we can say that is because they have instantaneous duration. If the duration is anything other than instantaneous, how can we say the spell isn't discharged when the last round passes, as opposed to when you first touch an opponent? It makes sense that you are holding the charge of a touch spell for as long as you can deliver more charges of it, rather than a blade you conjure and then hit things with for as long as it lasts.

I think the key is the holding a charge section of the SRD.

Touch Powers and Holding the Charge

In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch power on the round you manifest it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the power) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything with your hand while holding a charge, the power discharges. If you manifest another power, the touch power dissipates.

Some touch powers allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the power. You can’t hold the charge of such a power; you must touch all the targets of the power in the same round that you finish manifesting the power. You can touch one friend (or yourself) as a standard action or as many as six friends as a full round action.

It specifies discharging on touch, and that is how it defines "discharging" for the purposes of a touch spell.  Hammer, however, does not end upon touching, so I do not believe that this rule is referring to that.  Also, the next paragraph clearly does not refer to the Hammer spell, so it makes me think that the spell is not intended to discharge the atandard way and thus is not affected by the rule of no manifesting while holding the charge.  This levaes it in the zone of a spell that is more of a buff, like flame blade or energy claw.

Overall, I think this is one of those spells that they just didn't write enough text for.  Without any clear definitions in the SRD or the faq, we may just go with a vote.
 

Me initially saying that discharging is the same thing as ending was wrong, since Mage's Faithful Hound doesn't end on discharging either.
That bit of the SRD does say that touching anything discharges the power, but Hammer could just be said to discharge multiple times and end when the duration ends. But as long as the spell is active, you'd still be considered holding the charge, since you still would be postponing discharge; just a different discharge than you were a second ago if you've recently touched something.

But I definately agree that they either didn't put in enough text for this power, or didn't think hard enough about whay they did put in. If no conclusion can be reached, I'd say vote on it, though I'd wait for others to chime in if they'd like.

I understand that Hammer is not a touch spell, any more than Produce Flame is.

Are we looking at different srds?

Hammer

Hammer has a range of "Touch" but that doesn't make it a traditional hold-the-charge Touch Spell like Inflict Light Wounds is. The key thing isn't Range: Touch, but the combination of Range: Touch and Duration: Instantaneous. When you have Duration: Instantaneous, that means you hold a charge until you touch someone. Hammer, though, lasts for 1 round (or more), applying to all attacks you carry out until the duration ends. It is not discharged on use like an Instantaneous Duration spell.

What I've been going on is that a touch spell is just any spell with a range of touch...but if it also means that it has to have an instantaneous duration as well, it would explain things.

That said, I don't see where the SRD says that. As far as I can tell, there is no definition for 'touch spell,' just spells with a range of touch, which hammer is.

Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

Deliver Touch Spells (Su): If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master could. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates.

These are the only times 'touch spell' is referenced in the SRD. The only requirement I've seen for a spell to be a touch spell, is that its' range must be touch; nothing about it's duration.

Though it would make much more sense if that were a requirement. 

The central quote about holding the charge doesn't apply to Hammer. Basically, in most cases, you can hold the charge indefinitely, but Hammer is not an Instantaneous Duration spell, so it doesn't follow any of the held charge rules.

So...you're either saying that, because hammer is not a touch spell(because it's not instantaneous duration), it doesn't follow the rules for holding the charge.

To which I say that Hammer 'is' a touch spell, because the only requirement is that the spell's range must be touch, and that the spell's duration is not a factor in determining whether it is a touch spell by the rules, even if it makes little sense. 

Or you're saying that the central quote can't apply to Hammer because it can hit someone more than once, and thus can't be a touch spell.

To which I refer to the whole 'just because it discharges once doesn't mean it ends(see Mage's Faithful Hound) or that it can't discharge again' arguement above. 

In any case, I believe this thread demonstrates that people believe you shouldn't have to hold the charge on Hammer though, even if I don't see the reasoning behind the rules. (to be clear, I believe it 'should' work the way everyone else is arguing too)

No, Hammer is absolutely a touch spell. It has a range of Touch. But if you look at this:

"Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates."

Emphasis mine. Hammer is a case where the spell cannot be held indefinitely. You do not "hold the charge" like you do with a normal instantaneous-duration touch spell. It does not follow the rules of that paragraph. It is one of the exception cases.

Why are you saying that it cannot be held indefinately? Why, by the rules, if you spend 1 pp on Hammer, and fail to touch someone with it that round, would the spell end?

That seems like saying that if a lvl 1 Seer fails to hit on the round he casts destiny dissonance, the spell ends. They both have durations measured in rounds, they are both touch powers, and they both have targets of 'Creature touched'

You can't just 'say' it's one of the exceptions to those rules.

It's not at all like Destiny Dissonance. In the description, Destiny Dissonance says:

"Your mere touch grants your foe an imperfect, unfocused glimpse of the many possible futures in store. Unaccustomed to and unable to process the information, the subject becomes sickened for 1 round per level of the manifester. "

It's pretty clear that the duration refers to what happens after the touch spell takes place. Take a look instead at the description of Hammer:

"This power charges your touch with the force of a sledgehammer. A successful melee touch attack deals 1d8points of bludgeoning damage. This damage is not increased or decreased by your Strength modifier.

Augment

For every additional power point you spend, this power’s duration increases by 1 round."

There's nothing with a duration in it. It seems fairly obvious that if you do a 1PP hammer and don't hit anything for a round, the power is done. The whole purpose of augmenting this spell is to let you make multiple attacks. So, say, if you have +6 BAB you could cast a 2PP Hammer and possibly deal up to 4d8 damage with touch attacks over the course of a couple rounds.

Here's an important question that your interpretation of how Hammer works does not answer: What, in your mind, does Augmenting Hammer do?

EDIT: Hm, ok I guess I could see Hammer dealing 1d8/round, but that seems a LOT weirder to me than it buffing you for 1 round / pp. I say this because the short description of Hammer is this:
"Hammer ^A: Melee touch attack deals 1d8/round."

Which might imply once you touch him once, it deals 1d8/round until the duration expires. I find this very unlikely compared to my interpretation, but I get how you could have that as your interpretation.

Basically, this is how I think Hammer works: you cast it, and it lets you make touch attacks for a time equal to its duration, kind of like Produce Flame. Once it's over, it's over. This to me seems to be the most sensible and works best with how it goes with Augmentation.

By my interpretation, Hammer's duration starts the as soon as you make your first successful touch attack because it has a target line reading 'creature touched.' The spell targets a creature and is a touch spell. It acts on the creature, even if the description reads more like it acts on the caster, and as a touch spell, you may hold the charge instead of just whiffing as if it were a scorching ray. And as the Rules of the Game article says

The header takes precedence: None of the information in a spell's descriptive text is intended to contradict what's shown in the spell header, though it often helps modify it in some way

 As to what Hammer actually does: Unaugmented, it allows you to make touch attacks that deal 1d8 damage and is unchanged by your Str mod. If you opt instead to make only unarmed attacks, it adds 1d8 to w/e damage you'd normally do, just as any other touch spell, provided you hit. The number of times you deal this damage in this single round is only limited by the number of times you can make success attacks against the opponents, since the spell itself has a duration instead of being instantaneous. For this one round, you are considered holding the charge of Hammer.

Augmented, it still does not begin until at least one successful touch or attack has been made. As soon as one has been made, its duration begins. Each round, you may make a touch attack or just make normal attacks as above. When the spell duration ends, it ends. As long as the duration has not expired, you are considered holding the charge of Hammer.

At least, thats how I see it.

The problem is that the header text is insufficient to be clear. A "touch spell" is typically one which has a range of "touch", but what about spells you cast on allies? You can't hold the charge on those. I would say that the rules on holding a charge apply only to a given subset of spells with a range of "touch".

Pinning down the specifics is where it gets tricky BUT there is an obvious difference in that Hammer's duration is not the duration it affects someone else for, but the duration it affects you for. Though Produce Flames does not have a range of touch, in this respect they clearly work the same way. Meanwhile, a spell which has a duration of effect on a foe (or an instantaneous duration) can be held since the touch is just the delivery mechanism.

In essence, I'd say there's a difference between what we call a "touch spell" and a power like Hammer which grants you bonus damage on a touch. It's effectively a self-buff; I think the "touch" range part is confusing - but compare with something like Telekinesis which can be used multiple times. The range if refering to each of those uses, not to the spell itself necessarily.

But you -can- hold the charge on spells you cast on allies. If you don't touch an ally within the time frame, you certainly could hold the charge on the spell and wait for another round to make a touch attack(that would do no damage, but still be a standard action) that would then complete casting the spell on that ally. It's just not usually done.

So I disagree. I think the header text is fully sufficient. The problem is the descriptive text describes something entirely different from what one should expect, given the header. But the header takes precedence. 

Even if I think its silly and makes little sense. >_>

I think it works similarly to Produce Flame if produce flame only made normal touch attacks, yes. But Hammer is still a touch spell and I still think it's bound by the wierd rules, even if it's effectively a self-buff and similar to many things that aren't bound by the touch spell rules. They aren't touch spells.

EDIT: I find it interesting to note that, upon checking in the written handbook, Hammer is not a touch ranged spell...only on the online SRD. Strange. I should have thought of that earlier from all the 'hammer is not a touch spell' comments from Telin and Yitzi. >_>

EDIT2:...and then they released errata that changed it to what it is in the online SRD. The power made sense -before- the errata -.-

I think though that just because it has a range of touch, it is not necessarily a "touch spell" as per say. It just means that it only works at touch range. Sloppy wording, given the connotations, but what most likely happened was that when writing the errata, they only meant to change the activation to swift and forgot that the range wasn't actually touch.

Also note that Hammer is distinct in that it allows unlimited touches. Thus, the effect is governed by duration not touches, and so it doesn't really make sense for the time only to start counting down after the first hit.

Oct 23, 2012 -- 3:49PM, The_Fred wrote:

what most likely happened was that when writing the errata, they only meant to change the activation to swift and forgot that the range wasn't actually touch.

Personally, I'm inclined to think something like that happened too. 

As such, I'm done arguing about it. I stand by my statement that, by the rules, if it's a touch ranged spell that has a target, you would need to hold the charge on it after the duration starts and that the duration wouldn't start until you successfully touch someone. But I don't think that's what was meant when they re-wrote the power, and don't think that's the way it should be played.

Typical wizards, having a good thing and then throwing something random in there.  Flame blade had a similiar probelm where we were trying to figure out what being wielded like a scimitar meant.  Archaic flavour text from 1E confuses what shoulod be a clear mechanic in that respect.  I think majority opinion has the spell as more of a buff spell like flame blade and produce flames, as per the original writing, and then when they rewrote it, they goofed the range, and that it still counts more as a buff than a holding charge type spell. 

Oct 23, 2012 -- 11:57AM, Protasis wrote:

Are we looking at different srds?

Hammer

As it happens we are, because I prefer to use d20srd.org, but that doesn't affect things.

Note that I compared it to Produce Flame, which uses similar language (as it is also a touch attack) and has in the past been ruled to not follow the rules of holding a touch spell.

Oct 23, 2012 -- 12:46PM, Protasis wrote:

Why are you saying that it cannot be held indefinately? Why, by the rules, if you spend 1 pp on Hammer, and fail to touch someone with it that round, would the spell end?

Because it's a 1 round duration?  Same as if a level 1 wizard cast Grease, it would end after the round regardless of who it affected.

And Destiny Dissonance is different, as it has a target of Creature Touched, i.e. the spell activates when you touch the creature and therefore the count starts from there.

I think that's the real difference: When the target is the creature touched, then it's a spell delivered by touch (for short, a touch spell) and has all the rules of holding the charge, whereas if the target is unlisted or yourself, then it's a spell that creates a touch-attack ability, so holding the charge is not relevant.

I failed my roll to not respond. >_>

In any case, after I typed that, I went looking at other SRDs to see if any of them listed Hammer as anything other than a touch spell, and ended up using d20 as a reference myself after. It didn't list Hammer as not being touch, but it -does- list it as having a target line, which it should not. I didn't notice it, my bad. :p

But yes, as I just said, if it were a touch spell with a target(just like destiny dissonance), I would argue that the duration should not start unless it has hit said target at least once, regardless of the descriptive text says(unless that text basically says to ignore that) since both the touch range and target are in the header.

Also, Produce Flame is range 0ft, not touch. That's not the same thing. Thus, you couldn't hold it's charge anyway.

In any case, I already revised my opinion on how hammer should be run to what you're saying in the post above yours. We're on the same side! :D

Produce Flames is different, though, because it can also be thrown. In effect, it has two "ranges", in this sense.