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2 years ago ::
May 31, 2011 - 11:48AM
#1
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- Core Coliseum
- Heroic Dungeon Master
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Hedges: Hedges are marked as green line. They are 5 feet high and grant total cover against targets on the opposite site to medium characters if the character attempts to hide behind it. Large creatures must crawl in order to benefit from the cover. Bigger creatures do not benefit from hedges.
It seems to me that there's still some questions about how characters can interact with the hedge. I can remember at different times where the hedge was impassable, blocking LOE and LOS and when the hedge has been difficult terrain, etc.
So let's get this worked out, because a pitlord should not need to ask this each time it comes up on the City map.
Personally, I would have the hedge provide total cover, but also block LOS and LOE for medium and smaller, provide cover for large and low cover for huge or greater. The hedge is just bushes - so 2x or 4x movement would be acceptable to me as well.
So - discuss!
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2 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2011 - 6:31AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2007
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I don't have strong opinions, I just agree there should be fixed rules.
Hedge should provide total cover, block LoS and LoE for smaller certainly (medium I'm ok with too), provide cover for large and low cover for huge or more; I'd say let's make it 4x movement for interest (thick hedges?)
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 3:33PM
#3
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Ok you posted a static height... a hedge has a 5 foot height. Now imagine a 6 foot soldier who wasn't hiding behind the bush could still peer over the bush and effectively have LoS from 5 feet after the bush and until his sightline ends. would he see a cowering rogue who was hiding back pressed against the hedge? more than likely not depending on the width of the hedges. A 5 foot high X 5 foot wide hedge would definitely qualify for total coverage for someone pressed against it. But a spell caster over 5 feet tall should be able to see anyone a distance off and still be able to cast his spells at range (Not including rays, mainly AoE and Ranged Bursts.)
Whether or not this applies to an archer with his bow is all speculation for the DMs. However i could fully see a 6 foot Fighter standing beside the hedge and taking shots with a Crossbow with no difficulty at someone on the other side within his line of sight.
Another interesting idea i had was if indeed a pure arcane spellcaster were playing along the hedges, you could indeed perhaps send your familiar through the hedge and locate someone hiding on the other side... then assuming you are not found out with your familiar blast a hole through with a spell such as Burning Hands. Thereby destroying that particular section of the bush.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 4:04PM
#4
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- Core Coliseum
- Heroic Dungeon Master
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Welcome to the CoCo and the discussion.
Like most things in the CoCo - we tend to deal with things in size categories. Optimizing your human to be the maximum height (in order to see over a wall or to be able to jump up easier) while maintaining the smallest weight (in order to not go over light encumbrance for mounts) is just one of those things we tend to not cater to.
So - if you are a 7ft half-giant or a 4ft dwarf - it is immaterial - you are medium size. In combat terms, you take a 5ft cube.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 6:28PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2010
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I do agree though that you should not be allowed to shoot through the hedge if it provide total cover. Also, if the hedge is that thick, I do not think medium creatures should really be able to walk through it.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 04, 2011 - 8:10AM
#6
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- Core Coliseum
- Heroic Dungeon Master
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Actually - now that I think of it - the way targetting works for larger creatures, I don't need to specify something for large or larger creatures.
Big Creatures and Cover: Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.
[/quote]
Okay - so my revised text would be like this:
The hedge provides total cover to Medium and smaller creatures and blocks LOS and LOE for those creatures. A medium or smaller creature can move through the hedge with a 4x cost for movement. Large or larger creatures are not hindered by moving through the hedge - they can just step over it.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 04, 2011 - 10:50PM
#7
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"Like most things in the CoCo - we tend to deal with things in size categories. Optimizing your human to be the maximum height (in order to see over a wall or to be able to jump up easier) while maintaining the smallest weight (in order to not go over light encumbrance for mounts) is just one of those things we tend to not cater to. So - if you are a 7ft half-giant or a 4ft dwarf - it is immaterial - you are medium size. In combat terms, you take a 5ft cube." ~TelinArtho Ok but i make most of my characters to real life specifications, so if i were playing a 6'2" fighter (who is technically medium size) i would still make him weigh between 200-230lbs, that is if i'm not rolling a random stat for height and weight. So i haven't submitted a character yet and maybe someone can let me know where i can do that (I got sidetracked last time i looked) but if i were playing a character like such and i were next to a hedge as such and my character were safely away from someone within crossbow range (a la Uknits fight against Eluria, great fight by the way) would it be permissable for him to take a shot over the hedge? I can agree that some people try to make broken characters, and i don't agree with playing twigs just for mount purposes, but i can believe that if you accept the weight of being a certain height, shouldn't you also be able to reap the benefits of peering over a 5' hedge? I would like to add that a Human male has the following random statistics generator: Human Male: starts 4'10" adds +2d10: weighs 120lb multiplies by 2d4. nerdsandgeeksunited.proboards.com/index....With a maximum height of 6'6" (by adding the maximum 20 inches) you could then roll for a multiple to multiply that by to get your weight, a 6'6" man weighing 160lbs is possible, but not entirely likely, and I would definitely question someone with those statistics, but if you roll 2d4 and get a 3 and a 1, thats 20 X 4, which is still only 200lbs and IMHO very feasible. I know that i'm not in the greatest shape and i only weigh 200 at 5'11" and i knew guys who weighed less and were inches taller than me, these characters are meant to be Heroes, and as such you would assume they were in great shape. Which is why yet again i would never play a twig. And honestly I will still accept the DM's ruling on whether a medium character could feasibly shoot over the hedge against a ranged opponent, it just means that you have to role play and that's what the game is about. Just sometimes i enjoy arguing verifiable semantics. I look forward to the reply
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2 years ago ::
Jun 05, 2011 - 4:45AM
#8
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- Core Coliseum
- Heroic Dungeon Master
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Well to be honest - the actual problem lies more in the people who don't specify height and weight on their sheet and make assumptions in their tactics according to one extreme or the other (which is where we came to this conclusion that letting people do this on their own is "unfair" to their opponent).
We even had discussions about characters who took the minimums for the female height and weight for males because they didn't feel gender should be an optimization point.
The third problem is for non-standard races. If I make a krenshar - how variable am I allowed to make its height and weight? Or an ogre? or a dragon? etc etc.
Keeping everything to standard cubes allows for fewer disputes about what is okay and allows the pitlord to not have to make a call if the character's height and weight are called into question.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 05, 2011 - 4:56AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2007
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Gainesja, re: your other question, the best way to know how to make a character is here in the Quickstart Guide
The short version is you take a standard character sheet, click edit, click ctrl-A to select all and ctrl-C to copy, paste it in the text editor of your choice (ms word, notepad, whatever), and make your character according to the rules, which are basically core 3.5 but with exceptions as noted and described in the wiki. get everything set and then post it by going to the wiki and create a new page, usually Gainesja/CHARACTERNAME. Then ask for some comments, and let Telin know you're ready to be paired. Welcome again, and thanks for your interest and the discussion!
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2 years ago ::
Jun 05, 2011 - 4:59AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2007
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I think calling the hedge 5' is arbitrary - it's better to think of it as a medium height hedge. The main purpose of keeping things simple (ie, a 4'10 human and 6'6" human have no differences in relative height) is to make things even and balanced for all players and especially for the pitlord. It's hard enough to get started, without thinking about things like "should I be 6'6" tall to be able to peek over the hedge, and if I can peek over the hedge, does that mean it's harder for me to hide, and so I get only partial cover... well, what if I want to be 6'6" and 140 lbs so that I don't weigh too much for my steed, can I argue that I have some sort of eating disorder or endocrinological problem..." - it just gets to be too much; if you consider it a medium hedge, it probably has some taller areas, some smaller areas, but overall it's an obstacle that hides and hinders medium sized people. Simple  )
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