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2 years ago ::
Apr 13, 2011 - 4:34PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2010
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So, I was thinking of a character idea, and I had some questions about the fire lash ability. Does the fire whip qualify as a weapon for purposes of the weapons aflame ability of the pyrokineticist? It says it qualaifies for any feats that affect whips, but weapons aflame isn't a feat, though the weapons aflame ability does affect any weapon, and the flame whip is a weapon.
Second, since the fire whip is a ranged touch attack, is it a missle weapon in terms of point blank shot and rapid shot?
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2 years ago ::
Apr 18, 2011 - 4:41PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2007
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I saw you introduced this concept in the prestige class thing, with the pixie flamelash psionic shot.
I didn't know what to say then - it's a novel idea and actually pretty clever, and could be really successful. I don't know what to think rules-wise.
Fire lash is pretty clearly a whip - weapon focus, weapon spec, "as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip."
I think weapon-afire would work with it.
A whip is definitely listed as a melee weapon though.
I think by those rules, though, it's a melee weapon, even though it strikes with a ranged touch attack. Like flame blade is touch attack, I think this is just a 15' reach touch attack, personally. Though it really does specifically say "ranged touch attack." Hmm. I'm really struggling with this.
I mean, could you use psionic weapon AND psionic shot? because it's a melee weapon that attacks with a ranged touch attack?!
One thing that's potentially awesome is you could totally power-attack the crap outta this, basically constantly having deep impact up.
This is confusing me, a lot. I honestly really don't know, and googling isn't helping at this point. It seems like you'd have to pick one or the other, either it's a melee weapon (which makes most sense to me - it's a melee weapon that you attack with by rolling a ranged touch attack) and can get melee weapon feats, or it's a ranged weapon and can get ranged weapon feats, but can't get both...
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2 years ago ::
Apr 18, 2011 - 5:38PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2010
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Well, I think this is one of those cases of clear suspension of disbelief. There is no statement for the whip making it a melee weapon, just the fact that it qualifies for all melee weapon feats. Thus, from what I can read, it is a ranged weapon technically. I just want to see how other people read it.
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2 years ago ::
Apr 18, 2011 - 6:36PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2007
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It's listed as an exotic melee weapon though
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2 years ago ::
Apr 18, 2011 - 6:53PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2010
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The whip is, but it's unclear whether the fire lash is a true whip. It has it's own category for weapon focus and weapon specialization, so it seems to be a different weapon with overlapping aspects. Also, no proficiency with whips is needed to wield it as far as it appears.
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2 years ago ::
Apr 19, 2011 - 6:53AM
#6
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- Core Coliseum
- Heroic Dungeon Master
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Fire Lash (Ps): A pyrokineticist gains the ability to fashion a 15-foot-long whip of fire from unstable ectoplasm as a move-equivalent action. She takes no damage from a fire lash she creates, and if she releases her hold, it immediately dissipates. The lash deals 1d8 points of fire damage to a target within 15 feet on a successful ranged touch attack. A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip. The whip remains in existence as long as the pyrokineticist holds it.
Since I find it easier to look at this sort of stuff with the reference in front of me, here it is. From the above we know the fire lash is a "whip of fire" that the pyro can use in conjunction with weapon focus and weapon specialization. While the fire lash essentially is a weapon, it is not clear whether it should be treated as a ranged weapon or a melee weapon. I'll offer this: 1. It uses a ranged touch attack for the basis of the attack roll 2. If it is a ranged weapon, it provokes if the wielder is threatened by an opponent. 3. You can use power attack with a whip (it is a one-handed melee weapon), but you cannot use power attack with a ranged attack.
Because the Pyrokineticist’s Fire Lash creates a whip of fire that requires only a touch attack, can you apply a Str bonus to the damage? Can you power attack with this special weapon?
It would seem so. The wording in the description of this psi-like ability indicates that you can take advantage of any feat that would apply to the use of a standard whip. Since one of those feats is Power Attack, then by reason, you must be able to apply your Strength bonus to the damage of a fire lash as well.
There is no question in my mind (just my opinion) that the lash should be treated as a melee weapon that happens to use a ranged touch attack for the roll because it is based off of a melee weapon. However, if we do rule that it is a ranged attack, then power attack and the like should not apply and it would provoke if threatened.
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2 years ago ::
Apr 19, 2011 - 7:31AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2010
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Ok, so it's a melee weapon. That makes sense. One last question, though. Even though it is melee and wouldn't qualify for rapid shot/far shot/etc.... should it qualify for Point Blank Shot since it is a ranged touch just like crystal shard?
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2 years ago ::
Apr 19, 2011 - 8:31AM
#8
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- Core Coliseum
- Heroic Dungeon Master
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PBS refers to attacks made with a ranged weapon. If Fire lash is a melee weapon, then the answer is no. If the fire lash is a ranged weapon (and therefore provokes in melee), the answer is yes.
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2 years ago ::
Apr 19, 2011 - 9:17AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2010
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The thing is, it seems like it is a melee weapon that makes ranged attacks. Point Blank Shot applies to things that aren't ranged weapon and do not provoke, mainly spells and powers.
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2 years ago ::
Apr 20, 2011 - 3:34AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2007
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I don't really know how this will be answered besides opinion.
(first, PBS applies to things that aren't ranged weapons and do not provoke is not technically true, because spells and powers do provoke)
What I first said is:
"it's a melee weapon, even though it strikes with a ranged touch attack. Like flame blade is touch attack, I think this is just a 15' reach touch attack, personally."
What Telin concluded is:
"There is no question in my mind (just my opinion) that the lash should be treated as a melee weapon that happens to use a ranged touch attack for the roll because it is based off of a melee weapon."
I can absolutely see the argument for other, and the confusion, and I see builds on google using it as a ranged weapon, or as both.
I think it's meant to be a whip, melee weapon, that gets to attack with a touch attack, with 15' reach, therefore a ranged touch attack.
I think Fire Lash is a relatively unique ability and it requires a judgement call. My vote is that it's a melee weapon that happens to uniquely attack via ranged touch attacks.
I think it can use power attack (which makes it potent no matter what), weapon afire, psionic weapon, etc, but not PBS and Psionic Shot. I don't think it should provoke an AoO. I think it has crap wording and represents an example of imperfect type-editing and is confusing, but I think there is as always a call between "rules as written" and "rules as intended."
My vote is it's a melee weapon which just happens to have it's own unique way of making attack rolls, via ranged touch attacks.
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