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3 years ago ::
Apr 21, 2010 - 11:41AM
#1
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- Core Coliseum
- Heroic Dungeon Master
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For all works in progress. You or someone else has a build idea - flesh it out here and see what falls.
To start: Quickslip's Troglodyte barbarian idea
In your notes page, I saw this one. I would hesitate to focus on the stench. I once statted up a Troglodyte Half-Dragon Were Bactrian Camel to maximize on CON (so what if camels are not a valid choice for lycanthropy...) and then discovered that stench really isn't all that effective. It gives a sickened status, not a nauseated status. Sickened is unimpressive...
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3 years ago ::
Apr 22, 2010 - 8:31AM
#2
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- Core Coliseum
- Heroic Dungeon Master
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One of the character ideas I've been trying to make work is the Yuan-ti Pureblood. I like the abominations and the half-bloods - but starting out at ECL 16 or ECL 12 is just not reasonable most of the time. Purebloods start off at ECL 6 though, so it is much more reasonable.
All yuan-tis have a "good" racial hit die - Monstrous Humanoid. With full BAB, a d8 for hp and good reflex and will saves - monstrous humanoid has a lot going for it. They have proficiency with all simple weapons, longbows and scimitars - which is a decent array of weaponry; they have light armor and shield proficiency - so decent defenses to work with. They also have good SR, 2 bonus feats (which granted are not terribly useful - but they are bonus) and a couple of SLAs that are moderately useful (okay - only 3 of them are likely to see any use, though Cause Fear is already less than useful since it has a 5HD cap and the starting ECL of a pureblood is 6...).
So what exactly does the yuan-ti not have that makes it so difficult to make a character with? As far as I can tell, I think my hang up is actually on ability scores. With a +2 to DEX, INT and CHA, they just don't have the impressive physical stats I seem to have grown accustomed to with characters like Aquin (and later Aquin Reborn), Gulgar.
One other ability I think I'm disappointed with is the alternate form ability. Since it is alternate form and not change shape - the yuan-ti takes on the physical attributes of the snake it chooses. This invariably results in a loss of Str, a loss of Dex and an unimpressive Con. The only benefit to changing to snake form is to get the poison - but with the reduced Con and only 4 racial HD - the poison will always be DC12 (DC14 with Ability Focus). So maybe it comes down to the alternate form ability being useless...
Now, I'm not all about making characters that only win, but I really have a hard time seeing a yuan-ti winning (and yes somehow, Gulgar the Great (an ogre!) managed to take 3 wins out of his first 4 fights...).
So maybe someone can provide some ideas on where to take the character. Or - failling that - maybe someone can pinpoint what exactly is my hangup about them...
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3 years ago ::
Apr 22, 2010 - 10:24AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2007
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I will chime in here, as discussions like this are fun.
My effort to pinpoint the hangup is this - yes, Monstrous Humanoid are "good" racial HD, but they don't have "good" class features that go along with them - like you said, those bonuses are sort of pitiful, and you won't use many of the racial features - so you're getting good HD, but not much else - if you were a fighter, you'd get good HD and lots of feats for instance.
compare this to, say, Phrenic, which is an awesome template, gets great SR, great abilities, and great stats, only for +2... it's hard to see the great benefits of yuan-ti.
Besides fun... and it's all about fun, really.
I approach character creation quite differently for CoCo than for PbP or RL D&D; for CoCo, I think mostly aboout: what defenses will this guy have, what offense will he have, what will be the focus, period. how to survive, how to kill, and going full force at one of them.
The alpha strike crystal shard / split ray / psionic shot / wild surging wilder of doom is clearly all about offense. The phrenic pixie paladin with insane saves and invisibility is clearly all about defense.
It's hard to see what a yuan-ti would excel at; it just seems a little mediocre (for it's level, anyway) at most things...
...
Maybe this would be an interesting "contest" - create an ECL X (I'm thinking 6-8) character with an unusual base race from the MM, trying to make it playable. Then the 3-4 creations could battle it out in the arena as a one-off little fun-fest. I say this because, truly, it seems hard to make these things as potent as the abilities you get from classes...
Like, the blink dog rogue/assassin concept is cute, but mostly because it comes with blinking. That's sort of a one-trick pony... or doggy.
The smelly troglodyte is cute... I'd like to see this ghoul fighter you had mentioned, at some point.
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3 years ago ::
Apr 22, 2010 - 10:39AM
#4
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- Core Coliseum
- Heroic Dungeon Master
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BlaerghI'll bring him over to the wiki at some point - I'm sure. For now - post 832 in the old characters thread. -------- You make a good point about the difference between Phrenic with 4 class levels and Yuan-ti - Yuan-ti has the same SR, comparable ability bonuses and the like - but falls dreadfully short when you compare the SLAs vs the PLAs. In some ways the Yuan-ti ends up similar to a drow in that it gets a couple of SLAs, SR - but otherwise doesn't have much going for it. Hmm - I'll have to think on that some more. And this thread - I'm hoping it works out. I see a lot of thinking going on in the profile pages for Zireael and Quickslip and I of course think about this mess a whole lot on my own...
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3 years ago ::
Apr 22, 2010 - 11:50AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jul 29, 2008
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As far as the trog was going, I was think of making him either a tripping machine(or grappling machine, considering all those natural attacks), letting the stench essentally be +2 to AC and +2 to Grapple/Trip checks. I'd probably put a base 16 into Con, get a + to Con item at some point, then just let it lie...maybe add ability focus. Still, if it works, it works, if not it shouldn't matter too much to the concept of uber-tripper/grappler.
Then again, it'd probably be a one trick pony or turn into a lesser incarnation of a character named Arden I saw at some point, so eh...
But yeah, not much more to say on the Yuan-ti. Pretty much the same problem I have with Githyanki, only less so.
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3 years ago ::
Apr 22, 2010 - 11:56AM
#6
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- Core Coliseum
- Heroic Dungeon Master
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Note that grappling isn't so good for a non-natural grappler. In a grapple, you get one attack per 5 bab - not your full natural attack routine. If you choose the Attack opponent option - you get any rakes you have as well - but that's it. As a result, characters like Aquin (4 armed, bite plus 2 rakes) end up being actually less of a threat in a grapple. All of this is fine with me of course because I hate to grapple  Bring on the straight up fight where I claw you into bits and pieces Oh and I would say a sahaugin is better than troglodyte personally
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3 years ago ::
Apr 23, 2010 - 12:33PM
#7
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- Core Coliseum
- Heroic Dungeon Master
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Urgh - now I understand why I didn't bother fixing Zax after the change to Handle animal allies (specifically for non-animals...).
At ECL5, he used to be able to bring in a medium scorpion, medium spider and large centipede. Under the new rules, he can bring 1 of the three.
Now - I completely am behind the change now (I was very much against it before - especially since I was the only one using it. I had a hard time seeing it being unbalancing - but I've changed my tune on that...), but it certainly changes the character quite a bit. To make it more complicated, he's in the middle of a cycle, so I need to be careful about how I change him.
If I boost his cHA by 1 point he's able to bring 2 of them in - and since he's dropping 300gp worth of armor, 450gp for the vermin handling gloves and 50gp for the whistle he doesn't need - plus the 338gp he had previous to his first fight of the cycle - that puts him at 1138gp. He would need 2000gp total for a cloak of charisma +2 - which would do the job.
All in all - it might just be more reasonable to just restart him at ECL5. That way I don't have to worry about things being mid-cycle and the like... hmm.
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3 years ago ::
Apr 24, 2010 - 5:26AM
#8
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My two ideas were a succubus sorcerer. Huge bonus to CHA should do the trick, though it has high ECL too.
The other is a classic to anyone who has played IWDII for PC - deep gnome monk. Bonuses to Dex and Wis + dodge racial bonus + monk bonuses make for awesome AC. And all that at only +3 ECL.
And there's still the gnoll, whom I wrote up to have something that has awesome martial stats at low ECL. But I have no idea where to go with him...
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3 years ago ::
Apr 24, 2010 - 9:47AM
#9
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I think I've always wanted to make a hound archon work, really as a brutal alpha striker Deep Impacter. The DR never seemed to be strong enough but the idea was basically as follows: Wild Talent, Psi Weapon, Deep Impact, and then take Power attack at the next available feat slot.
Teleporting at will and really dealing with a no buff situation. Start teleporting to start boxes and hitting stuff.
This guy will still see play (will probably be my Thurmarist's cohort) and will end up w/ either as above or with a couple levels of PW before going into warmind. (I cant remember the details but I think I needed the PW levels for some of the skill ranks.)
I've had a few other builds roaming around. I think I had a halfling wolf riding druid archer. I have always liked phrenic but can never get it to quite work out right (Pal 18, Bard, Cleric/HuParagon -> Assassin). Multiple Half Celestial builds, but never taken them to posting. Couple of 'mutt' builds that pull from way too many classes (Ephraim is kinda prototype but I like her style more than anything else)
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3 years ago ::
Apr 26, 2010 - 9:42AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2007
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Thanks for linking to the ghoul, TA. Interesting characters are always just that -- interesting. I do'nt have much to say about him Zax is just a fun idea, and, well, allies seem pretty potent in CoCo, with the 1v1 pvp style making the action advantage of having extra hands so potentially useful. That was basically the plan with Qhodryn - wizard --> human paragon or loremaster for UMD skills, and improved familiar for an imp, plus leadership for another wizard + imp. With crafting wands, I figure they can each be equipped with something they can use... even if it's just a small debuff, like a wand of doom, having the 4 actions / round seems potent. That was actually another question I had, some time ago - about the enchanter variant in UA, which basically replaces a familiar with a Cohort, similar to leadership. I was wondering if that would be allowed, but it just seems ... ridiculous, really. I can picture a thrallherd, with 2 enchanter-thralls, each with a Cohort... I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed, rules-wise, but ... well, it feels a little much. ---- Re: some other things mentioned - succubus sorceror seems great flavorwise, but I think with the HD and LA, it would just be so, so far behind, that it'd be hard to be that playable. Fun, yes. Playable, I'm not so sure. I like Rith's concept of hound archon alpha striker teleporter - it's impressive what Ephraim can do with dimension dooring to close the distance quickly, sometimes. Having no buff rounds is great. I thought for a while about some sort of ranger/psion/slayer with swift ranger, speed of thought, run, fleet of foot, and skills to outmaneuver etc, but to be an effective combatant that would need a lot of buffing. When I was recently thinking about a blink dog (?rogue/assassin), one of the plusses was dimension door 1/round as a free action, and act right after. I thought that may be able to accomplish a mini-version of the hound archon thought, and much earlier... but that's still in its nascent stages. Maybe a grappling blink dog...
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