Clerics were more fun in 2nd edition. They were still healers which is (to me) their main distinction, but they did not fall behind as fast on the "I can hit that" scale because feats did not exist. In trying to balance the cleric in 3rd ed. someone somwhere thought they needed to have the same amount spells per day and the same top spell level as wizards. sounds good...but that means they have to lose ground in combat. But the 1st and 2nd edition description of cleric call the class a holy...
View full commentClerics were more fun in 2nd edition. They were still healers which is (to me) their main distinction, but they did not fall behind as fast on the "I can hit that" scale because feats did not exist. In trying to balance the cleric in 3rd ed. someone somwhere thought they needed to have the same amount spells per day and the same top spell level as wizards. sounds good...but that means they have to lose ground in combat. But the 1st and 2nd edition description of cleric call the class a holy WARRIOR. Give clerics less magic at the top 7th level resurrection should be just about the most powerful healing in existence anyway. Then give them back some martial power, and make them really shine vs. undead.
OR take the route 2nd edition eluded to but never really fleshed out. Gods have priest, and clerics and Druids are just two kinds of priests. then the cleric I described above would be like a priest of Kord etc. and a spell throwing buff-giver type would be a priest of some other god.
1. The Cleric Is a Healer: “This one should seem obvious, but it's worth making it clear that we assume that clerics can heal and that their abilities should reflect that. A player new to D&D who creates a cleric could focus on keeping the rest of the characters on their feet, and the mechanics would make that easy to understand and do.” - M.Mearls No, absolutely not. Especially not at the top of the list. A Cleric has the ability to aid his allies, including the ability to Heal...
View full comment1. The Cleric Is a Healer:
“This one should seem obvious, but it's worth making it clear that we assume that clerics can heal and that their abilities should reflect that. A player new to D&D who creates a cleric could focus on keeping the rest of the characters on their feet, and the mechanics would make that easy to understand and do.” - M.Mearls
No, absolutely not. Especially not at the top of the list. A Cleric has the ability to aid his allies, including the ability to Heal them, but this is not his Role. That’s right, you’re trying to pigeon-hole the Cleric as a Heal-bot by giving them the Role of Healer (Remember how you said you weren’t going to force Role’s on Players?!). Put this at the bottom of the list, or take it out altogether since it’s part of #2. Stating this as a Goal for the class disgusts me, it takes the focus off Roleplaying a Divine Servant and shoves it squarely onto playing a heal-bot
2. The Cleric Is a Divine Spellcaster:
I can agree with this as M.Mearls writes it. It is important that the Cleric not outstrip the other core classes by being able to do what they do, only better (using the #4 and #5 points as examples).
3. Divine Magic Is Subtle and Indirect:
I have no problems with this as M.Mearls interprets it.
4. The Cleric Is an Armored Warrior:
I think this can be true and so should be an option for the Cleric, through backgrounds and themes. I think a Clerics choice of Divine should play a large part of what kind of Cleric is being played.
5. Clerics Reflect the Gods:
Yes, absolutely agree with M.Mearls here. I’d go further, and say that each Cleric’s individual abilities and skills are tied to their choice of Divine.
One thing about #6 that I find strange is the notion of "If the fighter can get close, the wizard's dead." That seems to be the angry old-school consensus, along with the related "If the wizard can keep the fighter at a distance, the fighter is dead." Whatever happened to "I ready my bow and shoot him in his eye"? Why should a fighter's ranged attacks be less deadly than his up close ones, if he is truly versatile (#4 above). I admit, I do love the idea of balance across classes so I never...
View full commentOne thing about #6 that I find strange is the notion of "If the fighter can get close, the wizard's dead." That seems to be the angry old-school consensus, along with the related "If the wizard can keep the fighter at a distance, the fighter is dead." Whatever happened to "I ready my bow and shoot him in his eye"? Why should a fighter's ranged attacks be less deadly than his up close ones, if he is truly versatile (#4 above). I admit, I do love the idea of balance across classes so I never feel like my class was a bad choice unless I'm the one playing it badly. I don't want to be the wizard's caddie at high level anymore than I want to be his mommy at low level. I want him by my side, being awesome while I do the same. Our jobs aren't exactly the same, but I want to feel cool while I do mine and clap and yell encouragement as he does his. I very much loved the roles of different classes, and hoped that they would expand on that idea across classes. I wanted a wizard defender who wasn't a swordmage but instead used magic to up his defenses, who tanked the demon prince while wearing a dress and flip-flops, armed with a stick and a headful of hoodoo. One of the failings of 4th ed is they have never hammered out the martial idea enough to come up with a really good, solid martial controller. They took the idea of martial meaning "no magic at all" too far and painted themselves into a corner.
I actually totally agree a high level fighter should be able to hit a wizard with a bow attack, its just that on average arrows do less damage than heavy weapons since you don't get your str bonus unless you have a special bow, and this would mean it takes 3 or 4 rounds of arrows (whatever) to take down the wizard outright, giving the wizard hope of escape (teleport). I posted the earlier comment purely in response to #6 above suggesting that a high level fighter should be close to immune to a...
View full commentI actually totally agree a high level fighter should be able to hit a wizard with a bow attack, its just that on average arrows do less damage than heavy weapons since you don't get your str bonus unless you have a special bow, and this would mean it takes 3 or 4 rounds of arrows (whatever) to take down the wizard outright, giving the wizard hope of escape (teleport). I posted the earlier comment purely in response to #6 above suggesting that a high level fighter should be close to immune to a full assault of a high level wizard. I actually don't think of PC vs PC contests much when I play. I love playing wizards and I love playing barbarians, pretty much the two extremes role wise. I worry less about balance and more about fun.
These re excellent goals for the right kinds of players. It all depends on what your players playstyle is, and what the theme of the campaign/adventure is. My players would hunt down the orcs that run away, fearing they would bring reinforcements. Once battle is joined, its joined in their minds. They will try diplomacy at the outset, but once blood is shed, its kill them all, let the gods sort them out. Now, they have played a few battles where the goal was to save the children before they...
View full commentThese re excellent goals for the right kinds of players. It all depends on what your players playstyle is, and what the theme of the campaign/adventure is. My players would hunt down the orcs that run away, fearing they would bring reinforcements. Once battle is joined, its joined in their minds. They will try diplomacy at the outset, but once blood is shed, its kill them all, let the gods sort them out.
Now, they have played a few battles where the goal was to save the children before they were sacrificed. This is one of the ones that motivates them greatly...so sad that they didn't save the first batch of kids...but that only fueled their fire, so the next batch they were bound and determined to save, and pulled out all their healing and protective magic to do so.
They do try to keep 1 intelligent enemy alive to question, but that doesn't happen a lot. I find with my particular group of players right now, its grind combat, role play sessions, and an occasional trap or puzzle to figure out. All of which take time to go through. These guys can't buy a loaf of bread in under 30 mins. They roleplay all the haggling, detail their supplies, not just "rations for 9 people for 10 days" they lug around a wagon when above ground, and the Rogue/Bard will defend her right to her wagon with her life (Past DM trauma, seems in other groups she's played in, Pathfinder mostly, their DMs had a fondness for killing off the horses and disabling/stealing/destroying the wagons....her Husband being one of the biggest culprits...but he won't play 4e)
Anyway, yes, there are ways to speed combat up, make encounters quick but memorable, but they are dependent on the theme of the game, the style of the players, and how the dice fall as well. My guys would never, for instance, go for a 1 or 2 dice roll quick combat resolution. No matter how elegant I presented the option to save time. They are also, however, willing to put in the time and effort, and bemoan the fact we only get 4hrs play
It would be a mistake to bind yourself too tightly to the past and limit your options. Surely, creating a fantasy roleplaying game that is as much fun as possible is more important than maintaining the "feel" of D&D. Moreover, the new version will have to offer some compelling improvements if people are to be convinced to give up their favorite existing editions and spend the money to buy the new books. From the player's standpoint, it's not clear that fragmentation is bad. As long...
View full commentIt would be a mistake to bind yourself too tightly to the past and limit your options. Surely, creating a fantasy roleplaying game that is as much fun as possible is more important than maintaining the "feel" of D&D. Moreover, the new version will have to offer some compelling improvements if people are to be convinced to give up their favorite existing editions and spend the money to buy the new books.
From the player's standpoint, it's not clear that fragmentation is bad. As long as it doesn't lead to flame wars or other hostility, why shouldn't people play whatever versions they like?
I now am familiar with how the modules work, will it actually work for each individual character can be run with different modules or does it just mean different DMs in Next will be able to run the game with different modules. Different means to the same end. I read a post lately where one person stated that a player with a first edition character wouldnt have the patience for a 4th edition character to make all their rolls. I dont know. I checked out Paizo's advanced rules on their OGC site....
View full commentI now am familiar with how the modules work, will it actually work for each individual character can be run with different modules or does it just mean different DMs in Next will be able to run the game with different modules. Different means to the same end. I read a post lately where one person stated that a player with a first edition character wouldnt have the patience for a 4th edition character to make all their rolls. I dont know. I checked out Paizo's advanced rules on their OGC site. Holy crap its awesome. I guess modules may work after all.
I'm going to say that the PHB and DMG *should not* have "advice" sections on how to play, construct, or adjudicate adventures. Such material is useful precisely once, ever, in the life of any player or DM. Once. But unfortunately, in every edition of D&D, that crap has been strewn throughout the book, wedged between the actual tables used in play or character or adventure construction. It's not just wasting space, it's making the actual information more difficult to access. If...
View full commentI'm going to say that the PHB and DMG *should not* have "advice" sections on how to play, construct, or adjudicate adventures.
Such material is useful precisely once, ever, in the life of any player or DM. Once. But unfortunately, in every edition of D&D, that crap has been strewn throughout the book, wedged between the actual tables used in play or character or adventure construction. It's not just wasting space, it's making the actual information more difficult to access.
If such material is included - and it shouldn't be, it should be in a separate publication - it should be in an appendix or section TOTALLY separate from the actual material used to play the game.
As far as I'm concerned, there are two kinds of Save or Die mechanics. The easy ones are those wielded by the PCs. If the scope of your game doesn't revolve around small numbers of long, dragged-out encounters (for example, in politics-heavy intrigue games, or old-school-style megadungeons), save-or-die effects are a great way to deal with some kinds of foes *quickly*, while still depleting strategic resources. Hit point *percentage* thresholds (like the bloodied condition in 4e was) lose...
View full commentAs far as I'm concerned, there are two kinds of Save or Die mechanics.
The easy ones are those wielded by the PCs. If the scope of your game doesn't revolve around small numbers of long, dragged-out encounters (for example, in politics-heavy intrigue games, or old-school-style megadungeons), save-or-die effects are a great way to deal with some kinds of foes *quickly*, while still depleting strategic resources. Hit point *percentage* thresholds (like the bloodied condition in 4e was) lose the gloriously fast speed of resolution.
I think absolute hit point thresholds (like with Hold Person in the playtest), though, are *fantastic*. Two thresholds (say 10 hp and 50 hp) would lets you deathspell crowds of kobolds automatically, force a rival wizard to save or die, and have a dragon laugh it off every time, (as he should). The catch is that you have to discipline yourself not to use these abilities on PCs without making sure it has some mechanic to mitigate the effect. That means no randomly giving major demons no-warning deathspells that work on appropriately-leveled heroes. Looking at you, TSR and 3e. Monsters and NPCs exist only to suck and die, but players don't.
The real problem is attacks that kill or paralyze *PCs* in one hit with no warning. You could ditch them, but you're restricting yourself. Those *are* useful to two kinds of game. In a more gonzo game you might WANT PCs to die on a bad run of luck. Playing "Who got Gibbed the Hardest" is half the fun. And seventeen years of DMing has taught me that even if you run a less bloody game, the most dangerous form of this ability can create a lot of useful table drama and encourage players to come up with crazy schemes to evade it. but you need three things to keep it fair: the PCs absolutely *NEED* a warning, an avenue of escape, and a gimmick you can plan to avoid having to save (say, medusas and mirrors).
Save-or-die is a dangerous, but useful tool. Leave it in, but warn new DMs when you use it.
"The biggest drawback is that spellcasters and monsters have to be aware of a target's hit points to decide if an attack makes sense." Not necessarily. Just make sure that if the target FAILS their save, but is ABOVE the hit point threshold, he or she suffers hit point damage. For example: Medusa's Gaze Successful save: Negates Failed saved: If target has 30 or fewer hit points, target is turned to stone. Otherwise, target loses 20 hit points. I don't want to see...
View full comment"The biggest drawback is that spellcasters and monsters have to be aware of a target's hit points to decide if an attack makes sense."
Not necessarily. Just make sure that if the target FAILS their save, but is ABOVE the hit point threshold, he or she suffers hit point damage.
For example:
Medusa's Gaze
Successful save: Negates
Failed saved: If target has 30 or fewer hit points, target is turned to stone. Otherwise, target loses 20 hit points.
I don't want to see Medusa trying to chip away at PC hit points with a dagger or the snakes on her head. The gaze IS the key attack, and always should be.
I think that using non-scaling defenses to create minions is a good idea, but there should be a way to boost defenses against small numbers of attacks each round. For example, Fighters could take a feat to parry a certain number of attacks if they sacrifice a bit of + to hit on their turn, Rouges can dodge, Wizards and Clerics can cast defensive spells. This allows low level monsters to hit higher level characters if they come in force, while preventing every attack from hitting like in 3.5....
View full commentI think that using non-scaling defenses to create minions is a good idea, but there should be a way to boost defenses against small numbers of attacks each round. For example, Fighters could take a feat to parry a certain number of attacks if they sacrifice a bit of + to hit on their turn, Rouges can dodge, Wizards and Clerics can cast defensive spells. This allows low level monsters to hit higher level characters if they come in force, while preventing every attack from hitting like in 3.5.
This also fits with the complexity scale, so new players don't have to worry about it, while keeping it an option for the more experienced.
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“This one should seem obvious, but it's worth making it clear that we assume that clerics can heal and that their abilities should reflect that. A player new to D&D who creates a cleric could focus on keeping the rest of the characters on their feet, and the mechanics would make that easy to understand and do.” - M.Mearls
No, absolutely not. Especially not at the top of the list. A Cleric has the ability to aid his allies, including the ability to Heal...
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