Not gonna lie (sorry Erin) But while I like Fari as a character much more then I did when I began reading, she is still not my favorite character...I sort-of see her as my unofficial road to more Havi every half a chapter. >.>;;
Okay, I'm super curious: What is it you didn't like about Farideh at first?
Oh dear. Ok, its not that I "didn't like" Farideh, its just that at first she did not seem to be a very strong character...Im not explaining this well at all. I guess the best way for me to explain it is that I did not feel she was strong enough to do things on her own. Like the pact for example, I now cannot see a better way for you to have done it, but in the beginning it had this damsel-in-distress vibe I see too much in fantasy, being that she was the lonely clumsy girl who swooned for a big strong fox. BUT that was just at FIRST. I mean half-way through she got seperated and she was literally all alone without Havi or Mehen to fall back on and I gained a lot more respect for her character at that point, and I do really like her alot now. (Just not as much as Havi )
No worries! I figured you both liked her now. But I'm always interested in how that engagement process happens.
I agree! But now im impatient for Iluvrien to respond because im curious if he had the same reasoning as mine, or if he was thinking something compeltely different.
My apologies for being slow about replying, I returned from work last night too wiped out to offer anything remotely resembling a complete answer to your statements and questions, and I didn't want to insult you all by not taking the time to do so!
1. Brin ended up in Brimstone Angels specifically to be a human viewpoint. I felt pretty sure I could get you to identify with Farideh and Havilar and Mehen given the chance, but Brin provided a fallback viewpoint as well as a sympathetic way to show how most humans do see tieflings, and what they take for granted there.
I had wondered if this might be the case, not that Brin felt afterthough-ish or similar, but he was very Human about his humanity. His responses were sympathetic and about what I would have expected given his background (and his lack of success so far in escaping it). I did occasionally feel like clouting him around the ear and telling him to get himself together . My issue was never identifying with the non-human characters though, I had far less of a problem with that than understanding the people I meet every day who often bewilder me.
2. I know not everyone agrees with me on this, but in general, I'm not a fan of the "racial personality" characterization, for characters that aren't monsters.... I guess I find "nurture" way more interesting and fluid to write about than "nature."
And although I doubt everyone will agree with me either, I agree with this viewpoint. Not least because, narratively, it makes this a lot more interesting. When you know what to expect from a character because of their racial/species profile then it feels a bit, to me, like having already read the last page of a book. It recalls a comment of Tolkien's about Hobbits (if you can reference Michaelangelo, Erin, then I am going to reference Tolkien):
"you could tell what a Baggins would say on any question without the bother of asking him."
Tolkien's tales emerged from breaking with that idea. Farideh, Havi, Mehen and Lorcan work for me because you break that idea... some Realms authors don't. Give me nuture over nature any day!
I agree! But now im impatient for Iluvrien to respond because im curious if he had the same reasoning as mine, or if he was thinking something compeltely different.
In a way my reasons are similar, if a little different. It is a strength of Erin's writing that I had actually folded Farideh's swooniness, indecision and blundering into her character as aspects of her youth. So the reasons I didn't originally take to her were that I recognized in her the ability of the young to make a monumental hash of things. Even as I almost shouted at my kindle that she shouldn't get taken in by the slimy hellspawn (at Christmas, surrounded by family... that got me a few interesting looks) it wasn't a source of disbelief for me in the narrative.
As she started to get her head on straight then I was able to start thinking of her less as child that had caused everyone a lot of hassle, and more as a personality trying her best to make recompense for her actions in the only way she could. By pushing on through.
...if any of that makes sense. I am still a bit woozy.
My approach to the NPCs of previous editions. Spoiler:Show
I always saw the High Level NPCs as shepherds of the Realms not its defenders. Making sure that not too many sheep were lost as they milled around (as they are wont to do) and bringing on the young'uns into the job. In that way a shepherd never has time to go and hunt down all of the wolves but is pretty dashed effective at keeping them away from the sheep when they rear their heads.
"It was a puzzle why things were always dragged kicking and screaming. No one ever seemed to want to, for example, lead them gently by the hand." - Terry Pratchett
My apologies for being slow about replying, I returned from work last night too wiped out to offer anything remotely resembling a complete answer to your statements and questions, and I didn't want to insult you all by not taking the time to do so!
No worries!
My issue was never identifying with the non-human characters though, I had far less of a problem with that than understanding the people I meet every day who often bewilder me.
2. I know not everyone agrees with me on this, but in general, I'm not a fan of the "racial personality" characterization, for characters that aren't monsters.... I guess I find "nurture" way more interesting and fluid to write about than "nature."
And although I doubt everyone will agree with me either, I agree with this viewpoint. Not least because, narratively, it makes this a lot more interesting. When you know what to expect from a character because of their racial/species profile then it feels a bit, to me, like having already read the last page of a book. It recalls a comment of Tolkien's about Hobbits (if you can reference Michaelangelo, Erin, then I am going to reference Tolkien):
"you could tell what a Baggins would say on any question without the bother of asking him."
Tolkien's tales emerged from breaking with that idea. Farideh, Havi, Mehen and Lorcan work for me because you break that idea... some Realms authors don't. Give me nuture over nature any day!
I agree! But now im impatient for Iluvrien to respond because im curious if he had the same reasoning as mine, or if he was thinking something compeltely different.
In a way my reasons are similar, if a little different. It is a strength of Erin's writing that I had actually folded Farideh's swooniness, indecision and blundering into her character as aspects of her youth. So the reasons I didn't originally take to her were that I recognized in her the ability of the young to make a monumental hash of things. Even as I almost shouted at my kindle that she shouldn't get taken in by the slimy hellspawn (at Christmas, surrounded by family... that got me a few interesting looks) it wasn't a source of disbelief for me in the narrative.
As she started to get her head on straight then I was able to start thinking of her less as child that had caused everyone a lot of hassle, and more as a personality trying her best to make recompense for her actions in the only way she could. By pushing on through.
...if any of that makes sense. I am still a bit woozy.
Makes perfect sense, and your responses actually clear up for me the reasoning behind this category of reaction. And I like it.
So I've found people (who like the book, don't respond "but tieflings should be wicked") fall into two basic groups: those who would have done the exact same thing as Farideh and those who think it was an incredibly stupid thing to do.
The first group sees Lorcan and the pact as the lesser evil--in Arush Vayem, Farideh's life is already charted and while it's not particularly dangerous, it's incredibly bleak. She won't find work she's passionate about. She won't marry. She'll basically be judged and pushed around by the other villagers until she breaks. So for a lot of readers they're making the deal before she does--whatever happens, it has to be better than Arush Vayem. This was my viewpoint, writing it.
The second group, I think, includes you guys (correct me if I'm wrong here). But previously, I didn't really get it, I think because it focused on Farideh's stupidity, and I don't think she's stupid. Yes, a cambion is bad news, but it's not like she has a copy of the Monster Manual on hand. And for all the focus on Lorcan's attractiveness, that's not what snares her. It's that he's offering her the one thing she'd give anything to get: safety and control.
But it's not an unfamiliar pattern and we can look at it and know, that way lies heartache for everyone. It's less stupidity and more the folly of youth that Farideh cannot see that pattern staring her in the face, and we want so bad to take her aside and say, "Sweetie, no. There are other options. Trust me." But we can't and she doesn't listen and we have to watch her muddle through needlessly, and it must be like watching that friend or relation make all the wrong decisions and you just have to sit and watch them be idiots, because we have to make our own mistakes.
Which I like better than "It was stupid" because that is a very relateable reaction.
Hmm, not sure I phrased my answer well but yes, that is generally what I was getting at.
Perhaps it would be better so say that although I regard it as a mistake, I am not sure that I would regard it as a stupid mistake. I would also look more kindly upon her choice if it hadn't been obvious that there would be profound repercussions on the others, i.e. I would be happier about her choice if she was only making it for herself.
If she was on her own and stuck in Arush Vayem then I would endorse the Lesser Evils aspect without reservation. Not the wisest choice of actions (and I would probably still wish I could sit her down with the "Sweetie, no..." line) but I doubt that it would spark the same degree of "What did you just do?!". I also wouldn't have blamed her for quietly bludgeoning Criella with the book as she made her way home, by the way.
However, although Lorcan pitches the pact in terms of the protection she could provide, of Havi or the village or of any of the similarly downtrodden, I was not sure at first that Fari's primary motivation wasn't to escape her own life. The charted course you mention. A flash of selfishness that saw herself at the heart of a whirlwind of power, finally free.
I had thought at the time (and I just checked) that we don't get to see her exact thoughts at that moment so it was only later, seeing how she dealt with the results of the choice and her resolve to remain with and protect the others that I made up my mind about her initial decision.
The long and short of it being that I don't think she is stupid, or that the decision reflected stupidity (not as such) but at first I thought it may have been selfish (though I later decided against it) and still maintain that it wasn't a particularly well informed one (not that I could blame a 17 year old with a comparatively sheltered upbringing for that).
Maybe that explains things a bit more clearly? (I had a nap and it helped my thought processes clear a little )
As an aside, when you are doing a book signing tour in the UK?!
My approach to the NPCs of previous editions. Spoiler:Show
I always saw the High Level NPCs as shepherds of the Realms not its defenders. Making sure that not too many sheep were lost as they milled around (as they are wont to do) and bringing on the young'uns into the job. In that way a shepherd never has time to go and hunt down all of the wolves but is pretty dashed effective at keeping them away from the sheep when they rear their heads.
"It was a puzzle why things were always dragged kicking and screaming. No one ever seemed to want to, for example, lead them gently by the hand." - Terry Pratchett
Maybe that explains things a bit more clearly? (I had a nap and it helped my thought processes clear a little )
That sounds pretty much like what I thought you were saying. Which means it was probably me who needed the nap. :p It's only other folks that have held up her choice as being stupid in their minds, but reading you two's reaction and thinking about those other responses in that context has made me see that what you're saying is probably what they meant. Probably.
As an aside, when you are doing a book signing tour in the UK?!
Pffft, these authors and their entirely reasonable, practical and down-to-earth approaches to travel .
One final question here, before we move on to the rest of the book tomorrow:
I am sure someone has asked this before, and if so I apologise, but did you have Lesser Evils in mind, as a publishing reality, while writing Angels? If so, then do you have another in mind having produced Evils?
My approach to the NPCs of previous editions. Spoiler:Show
I always saw the High Level NPCs as shepherds of the Realms not its defenders. Making sure that not too many sheep were lost as they milled around (as they are wont to do) and bringing on the young'uns into the job. In that way a shepherd never has time to go and hunt down all of the wolves but is pretty dashed effective at keeping them away from the sheep when they rear their heads.
"It was a puzzle why things were always dragged kicking and screaming. No one ever seemed to want to, for example, lead them gently by the hand." - Terry Pratchett
Pffft, these authors and their entirely reasonable, practical and down-to-earth approaches to travel .
One final question here, before we move on to the rest of the book tomorrow:
I am sure someone has asked this before, and if so I apologise, but did you have Lesser Evils in mind, as a publishing reality, while writing Angels? If so, then do you have another in mind having produced Evils?
Pffft, these authors and their entirely reasonable, practical and down-to-earth approaches to travel .
One final question here, before we move on to the rest of the book tomorrow:
I am sure someone has asked this before, and if so I apologise, but did you have Lesser Evils in mind, as a publishing reality, while writing Angels? If so, then do you have another in mind having produced Evils?
I mentioned above that this was not the sequel I had in mind, but I was contracted for it and a third book, while I was writing Brimstone Angels. That third book became the third Sundering book, The Adversary--as LDK mentioned--which is the sequel to Lesser Evils, albeit once more not the sequel I had in mind. After that, I have been contracted for afurther three novels, which are presumed to be Brimstone Angels novels. Although I never count my chickens before their hatched, so if you want them to be Brimstone Angels novels, I highly suggest you talk the books up to your friends and neighbors.
Actually, I think it will be fun pointing out where the story was changed by adding Lesser Evils into the timeline before taking the characters to Cormyr! There were several places where what I had planned ended up paling beside what I ended up doing.
The difference being that I was talking about the next story about Farideh and Havi. Erin's next book and the next Angelsstory are, as she has been so kind as to tell us, not necessarily the same thing. Especially, I think, since my question was aimed at what she had in mind while writing. Rather than what was on the release schedule.
Actually, I think it will be fun pointing out where the story was changed by adding Lesser Evils into the timeline before taking the characters to Cormyr! There were several places where what I had planned ended up paling beside what I ended up doing.
Thank you. That certainly answers my question neatly enough. I suppose I was asking whether you had an "on going adventures of Fari, Havi, Mehen..etc" in mind while writing, even if each point along your originally planned path wasn't exactly what you ended up doing. Nice to know that they have a few more scrapes to get into yet!... even if they aren't the scrapes you are currently planning .
I will certainly be recommending Angels to anyone likely to read it.
My approach to the NPCs of previous editions. Spoiler:Show
I always saw the High Level NPCs as shepherds of the Realms not its defenders. Making sure that not too many sheep were lost as they milled around (as they are wont to do) and bringing on the young'uns into the job. In that way a shepherd never has time to go and hunt down all of the wolves but is pretty dashed effective at keeping them away from the sheep when they rear their heads.
"It was a puzzle why things were always dragged kicking and screaming. No one ever seemed to want to, for example, lead them gently by the hand." - Terry Pratchett
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