Here we are at the end of another great Book Club journey. This book has really felt like a classic fantasy journey more than a lot of the others we've read. It has an interesting dynamic and I'm curious to hear what all of you felt about the ending and the book as a whole. Just what is Saba going to find as they delve deeper?
This forum will cover Chapters 21-25.
Looking forward to your thoughts!
On another note, our next Book Club selection has been confirmed. We'll be reading Erik Scott de Bie's Shadowbane: Eye of Justice starting in a few weeks!
I couldn't wait to finish the book and I am definitely glad that I read right through to the end last night.
This might be my favorite ending of the books that I have read so far with the group. I loved how the party just kept losing members. Not that I always want to see characters die in books, but I really felt like there was a real chance that the group was going to fail. We have all read the books where the group overcomes great evil despite overwhelming odds and nobody ever dies. That same group continues on for an entire trilogy never losing anyone more than driver of their wagon. When they lost Zi and Skraag to the myconids, and then Jester to the Leviathan I was blown away. The party was reduced to the original two members and a drow, who I wasn't sure could be trusted, in what felt like the blink of an eye. I don't remember if I have ever read a book where the author took the time to introduce the characters, give them enough flesh for the reader to connect to them, and then kill them off. I guess my question for Marcy is, was that your intention from the beginning or did things just develop that way?
One other aspect of the ending that I thoroughly enjoyed was that I feel like the party failed. They survived, but I still felt like they lost this battle, and now the war could ramp up exponentially. I kind of compare it to The Empire Strikes Back, or The Fellowship of the Ring. The characters survive the story but it is a bittersweet ending due to losses sustained or the fact that they accomplished very little. I am crossing my fingers that there will be more Sabira vs. The Spinner in the bookclub's future. WOTC MAKE IT HAPPEN!!
The Draconic Prophecy was not that big of a deal for me until we started to see Greddark finding the errors in translation which lead right to the confrontation with Tilde. It was like figuring out that you are going to walk into a trap just a split second before it is sprung on you. Well played Marcy....well played indeed.
Another part that is really minor but I loved what Marcy did with it, was when the half-lizard/half-spider monsters attack right before them in the cathedral right before they teleport to safety. I chuckled out loud because I remembered how Sabira had thought she had seen one earlier in the novel and dismissed it as her imagination. It was nice to see that moment come back around later in the novel. I don't remember if she pointed the creature out to Xujil when she thought she had seen it or not. I am going to have to go back and reread it to see if that was a moment when the drow guide lied to her.
I enjoyed the Shard Axe and Skein of Shadows so much that I downloaded DDO just so I can keep enjoying the Eberron experience.
I loved how the party just kept losing members. Not that I always want to see characters die in books, but I really felt like there was a real chance that the group was going to fail. We have all read the books where the group overcomes great evil despite overwhelming odds and nobody ever dies. That same group continues on for an entire trilogy never losing anyone more than driver of their wagon. When they lost Zi and Skraag to the myconids, and then Jester to the Leviathan I was blown away. The party was reduced to the original two members and a drow, who I wasn't sure could be trusted, in what felt like the blink of an eye. I don't remember if I have ever read a book where the author took the time to introduce the characters, give them enough flesh for the reader to connect to them, and then kill them off. I guess my question for Marcy is, was that your intention from the beginning or did things just develop that way?
It was always my intention for Sabira and Greddark to be the only ones standing at the end, yes. But how we ultimately got to that point was as much a journey for me writing as it was for you reading. I did know some would die and some would turn back, but I didn't know who and when, and in a certain sense, it didn't matter, because up until that point, they believed they'd be in it until the end, so I had to make sure the reader did, too.
A few people have compared this book to Kurosawa's Seven Samurai and I think the comparison holds up well.
One other aspect of the ending that I thoroughly enjoyed was that I feel like the party failed. They survived, but I still felt like they lost this battle, and now the war could ramp up exponentially. I kind of compare it to The Empire Strikes Back, or The Fellowship of the Ring. The characters survive the story but it is a bittersweet ending due to losses sustained or the fact that they accomplished very little. I am crossing my fingers that there will be more Sabira vs. The Spinner in the bookclub's future. WOTC MAKE IT HAPPEN!!
Hear, hear !
Skein of Shadows has been called "The Empire Strikes Back of Eberron," so you're not the only one who felt that way.
The Draconic Prophecy was not that big of a deal for me until we started to see Greddark finding the errors in translation which lead right to the confrontation with Tilde. It was like figuring out that you are going to walk into a trap just a split second before it is sprung on you. Well played Marcy....well played indeed.
Thank you!
Honestly, prophecies annoy the heck out of me, so getting the chance to subvert one made me happy, heh.
Another part that is really minor but I loved what Marcy did with it, was when the half-lizard/half-spider monsters attack right before them in the cathedral right before they teleport to safety. I chuckled out loud because I remembered how Sabira had thought she had seen one earlier in the novel and dismissed it as her imagination. It was nice to see that moment come back around later in the novel. I don't remember if she pointed the creature out to Xujil when she thought she had seen it or not. I am going to have to go back and reread it to see if that was a moment when the drow guide lied to her.
I'm glad you caught that! It's tricky placing references like that earlier in the book, because you don't want to make too big a deal out of it and ruin the surprise later. But if you don't make enough of a deal out of it, readers may not pick it up at all and then when it returns later, they feel like it came out of left field. Looks like I walked that tightrope without falling off! (Whew! Heh.)
Another fun WotC Novel--great work on this one Marcy!
I fell a little bit behind in my reading, but was able to rally and finish on time.
And the rally was really not that hard--this book sped up a LOT towards the end--really became an extremely fast read. I think we have seen this in several of our book--the beginning is slow intrigue, chracter growth, world building type stuff and then once that is out of the way we are off to the races. Which I often find problematic--I really think I prefer the world building stuff in a lot of way & this book could have been an extra 100 pages easy! The stuff we learn about the underdark--the paranoia, visual distortions, etc.--returned a lot of the twisted EVIL elements to the Underdark which I think had been missing lately. I really liked that stuff.
I thought the betrayl and simple slaughter becuase he turned his back was handeled very well. In fact that entire 'witty banter' section was again a real highlight of the book. The way we see what the characters are thinking, compared to what they are saying is handled very well in this--a real strength of Marcy's writing I think.
I do find your concerns about Prohpecy intersteing--I felt you captured a lot of the elements of the Draconic Prophecy really well--the sense of getting caught up in it, that nothing means what it seems to mean even after the third clarification, the fact that it seems to 'work out' regardless of what the characters do. I did not sense that your use of the prophecy was 'subversive'--can you talk a little more about this? How did you subvert the prophecy? Why does prophecy annoy you? Can you provide examples of specifically annoying literary prophecy [maybe compared to stuff you do not find as distasteful]?
In any event, I am really hoping this series is a trilogy!
And the rally was really not that hard--this book sped up a LOT towards the end--really became an extremely fast read. I think we have seen this in several of our book--the beginning is slow intrigue, chracter growth, world building type stuff and then once that is out of the way we are off to the races.
This is a function of a few things, like deadline and word count, but the most important factor (at least for me) is the type of story you're trying to tell. This type of story - action/adventure - really should pick up steam as it progresses, careening madly toward the climax.
I really think I prefer the world building stuff in a lot of way & this book could have been an extra 100 pages easy!
You should read Legacy of Wolves if you haven't already. It was something like 20K over the contracted word count - lots of world-building in that one!
The stuff we learn about the underdark--the paranoia, visual distortions, etc.--returned a lot of the twisted EVIL elements to the Underdark which I think had been missing lately. I really liked that stuff.
Probably the biggest reason for that is that I'm not that familiar with any of the FR novels detailing the Underdark, and I didn't read any for this book. While I did read the 4E sourcebook, I didn't feel beholden to it for what I was doing. Remember, Khyber is analogous to the Underdark, not synonymous, so they should feel different, IMO.
Also, a fair amount of DDO takes place underground, so I tried to incorporate that in-game feel into my descriptions, as well.
I thought the betrayl and simple slaughter becuase he turned his back was handeled very well. In fact that entire 'witty banter' section was again a real highlight of the book. The way we see what the characters are thinking, compared to what they are saying is handled very well in this--a real strength of Marcy's writing I think.
Thank you! Dialogue is one of my favorite things to write, so I'm always happy to hear people enjoyed reading it as much as I enjoyed writing it.
I do find your concerns about Prohpecy intersteing--I felt you captured a lot of the elements of the Draconic Prophecy really well--the sense of getting caught up in it, that nothing means what it seems to mean even after the third clarification, the fact that it seems to 'work out' regardless of what the characters do. I did not sense that your use of the prophecy was 'subversive'--can you talk a little more about this? How did you subvert the prophecy? Why does prophecy annoy you? Can you provide examples of specifically annoying literary prophecy [maybe compared to stuff you do not find as distasteful]?
I guess subversive in the sense that even when you think you know what it means, you really don't, and even when you think you've stopped or fulfilled it, you can find a way to interpret it that indicates you've done just the opposite. Prophecies are like horoscopes in that way, I think - they can mean whatever you want them to mean, and their only real power lies in your belief in them. If you change your behavior because of it, then it has power over you. This is Sabira's viewpoint - though in the end, she can't really be sure her view is the right one.
In terms of specific prophecies that annoy me, I can't really think of one (though I do seem to recall I didn't like the Belgariad books because of prophecy-related issues, but I don't remember why now). Generally speaking, I think they've been very over-used in fantasy. Maybe my annoyance stems from the fact that some authors use prophecy as a Deus Ex Machina, and to me, that's lazy story-telling.
The Draconic Prophecy doesn't bother me in the same way, because it's part of the fabric of the world, written on the very flesh of its inhabitants, and even the wisest creatures don't pretend to have a clue what it means as a whole. So if it drives events, it does so in such a subtle way that you never really know if it's a factor or not.
In any event, I am really hoping this series is a trilogy!
Me, too!
So, here's my standard plug, to you and everyone else who enjoyed it and wants to see more of Sabira - let WotC know. Review the book, on Amazon, Goodreads, and on your own blogs, if you have them - or ask your favorite review site to do it. Tell people about the book. Buy it as a gift for them. Punch anyone who pirates it in the nose. (J/K. Sort of.)
More word of mouth = more sales = more contracts = more Sabira, and we all want more Sabira!
Regards, Marcy
Marsheila (Marcy) Rockwell www.marsheilarockwell.com Skein of Shadows, 2012 (Eberron/DDO novel) The Shard Axe, 2011 (Eberron/DDO novel) Legacy of Wolves, 2007 (Eberron novel)
Sorry I'm a day late, but my life has been as crazy as Sabira's lately!
Anyway, I first want to thank Marcy once again for great responses. This Book Club is only as successful as the authors who participate with our readers.
I want to second two notions. First, this really was the Empire Strikes back of Eberron. And second, it would be a shame if this series ended here! I really want to see more from Sabira.
When I started reading this novel, I was expecting another Shard Axe. Don't get me wrong, I really liked the Shard Axe, but I think it would have benefitted from another 200+ pages. It was so full of backstory, world info, and mystery, the pacing was an issues for me.
This book had none of those problems and felt completely different to me. It's nice to see an author write different kinds of stories. I was expecting the entire party would make it fairly quickly to the drow area and then most of the novel would take place there. I was (pleasantly) surprised that most of the story was about the journey and only a little about the destination. It was also a big shock that the entire party bought the farm, especially Jester! The pacing in this book was perfect for the length, so kudos to Marcy for really figuring it out here. I'm not saying authors should never attempt a more epic fantasy novel in D&D, but without a trilogy to work with, it's tough, and it doesn't seem like they're pre-signing anyone to a trilogy these days who's last name isn't Salvatore.
Xujil was probably the most interesting character for me, and I was also shocked when he got killed so quickly, but it felt right under the circumstances. I didn't quite get the Rakshasa at the end, but I may have missed something. It felt like an extra layer that might not have been needed. Other than that, I really don't have any other complaints about this novel. Great work, Marcy! I look forward to reading more!
I'm on the fence about the book. I liked it a lot but it also left me with a slightly sour taste somehow, hard to define. I think for me the pacing and conclusion at the end was slightly to quick. I can understand it creates links for another story, which I personally think should be written, but somehow it felt a bit forced. I think one or two chapters more would have given it a bit more substance and a chance to elaborate a bit more on the nature of the BBEG. Now Tilde is only in the beginning and right at the end. Some foreshadowing in the middle with a slight interlude or something could have established her some more. I'm also slightly clueless as to her motivations beyond the hatred for Sabira. Somehow the artifact should have also featured into this.
In general I think it is a great read and deserves a sequel or a new Sabira adventure but I believe it could have benefitted from another one or two chapters at the end.
Wow - those last few chapters were brutal! I have to say I wasn't quite expecting such a high bodycount - it's no wonder Sabira has nightmares (with or without thought-manipulating amulets - nice touch, by the way!) when she witnesses the deaths of so many people under her care.
As much as I disliked seeing Skraad, Zi and Rahm fall, the scene worked for me primarily because Sabira seemed helpless and torn - she wanted to save them, but she simply wasn't powerful enough. Losing Jester in the next chapter was just as bad - the scene where they waited by the beach was pretty dark, especially as it's uncertain whether he's still alive under all that water.
I thought the leadup to the confrontation with Tilde worked well - the description of the city and its guardians, the piecing together of the prophecy and the reveal of Tilde's transformation all kept me reading, and Xujil's comeuppance was a lovely bit of punctuation.
Overall, then, I enjoyed the book, but I have to admit to feeling a little disorientated afterwards; perhaps it's because I'd read Shard Axe in paperback and Skein of Shadows as an e-book, but Skein felt to be a bit too short somehow; and weirdly the more personal climax of Shard Axe seemed to be more powerful than Sabira's averting of a potentially huge menace in Skein. The parts of the book I enjoyed the most were the descriptions of the fantastic locations, and the character development and interaction (especially the banter that davidgiven described above) - obviously word limit will always be one of the greatest pressures, but I'd have loved to see more from the other characters (although I thought Greddark was a great foil for Sabira and a great character in his own right). Perhaps as Dado says the only way that could happen with this format is with a trilogy.
I do hope we see more of Sabira and Elix - I can't imagine that Wilhelm will be happy with Elix's proposal, and I dare say that events will conspire against them in the worst possible way, but I'll certainly enjoy reading about them! Many thanks for taking part, Marcy - I *think* I've got a copy of Legacy of Wolves around here - I'll have to see if I can squeeze it in so I can learn a bit more about Greddark
Anyway, I first want to thank Marcy once again for great responses. This Book Club is only as successful as the authors who participate with our readers.
Thanks for having me! I had a blast, as always. You guys are great!
I want to second two notions. First, this really was the Empire Strikes back of Eberron. And second, it would be a shame if this series ended here! I really want to see more from Sabira.
It's nice to see an author write different kinds of stories. I was expecting the entire party would make it fairly quickly to the drow area and then most of the novel would take place there. I was (pleasantly) surprised that most of the story was about the journey and only a little about the destination. It was also a big shock that the entire party bought the farm, especially Jester! The pacing in this book was perfect for the length, so kudos to Marcy for really figuring it out here.
Xujil was probably the most interesting character for me, and I was also shocked when he got killed so quickly, but it felt right under the circumstances. I didn't quite get the Rakshasa at the end, but I may have missed something. It felt like an extra layer that might not have been needed. Other than that, I really don't have any other complaints about this novel.
The Rakshasa was one of the elements WotC wanted in the story, and his inclusion probably makes more sense if you are familiar with the DDO game (or even if you play the Encounters game, since that storyline was supposed to tie into the book, as well). I did try to put in hints throughout the book so that his appearance would make a little more sense at the end, but maybe I was too subtle. Always a fine line to walk, and easy to step a little too far in one direction or the other.
Great work, Marcy! I look forward to reading more!
Thanks so much! I look forward to (hopefully) writing more!
In the meantime, it's not D&D fiction, but I do have a series of Arabian-flavored S&S stories featuring strong female protagonists out as ebooks from Musa Publishing. Here's a link, if that sounds like something you'd be interested in:
I think for me the pacing and conclusion at the end was slightly to quick. I can understand it creates links for another story, which I personally think should be written, but somehow it felt a bit forced.
In general I think it is a great read and deserves a sequel or a new Sabira adventure but I believe it could have benefitted from another one or two chapters at the end.
I'm glad you liked the story overall, even if the pacing didn't quite work for you. Final story length is something that isn't always completely in the hands of the author, for various reasons, but I was pretty happy where this one ended up. Maybe I'll be able to make the next one longer.
Regards, Marcy
Marsheila (Marcy) Rockwell www.marsheilarockwell.com Skein of Shadows, 2012 (Eberron/DDO novel) The Shard Axe, 2011 (Eberron/DDO novel) Legacy of Wolves, 2007 (Eberron novel)
