First off, a huge congratulations to Erin who was nominated for a Scribe award this year for Brimstone Angels. Marcy Rockwell was also nominated for The Shard Axe, another one of our Book Club selections from earlier in the year. Do we know how to pick 'em, or what?
It was hot as the hells here in PA yesterday and I didn't even want to go upstairs on the computer to post a new Book Club thread! Instead, I gorged on Memorial Day goodness. Here's the next thread then, a day late and a copper piece short.
This forum will cover Chapters 9-11, pages 150-200.
Totally loving the avuncular attitude of the Ashmadai shopkeeper Yvon Claven towards Farideh. Best scenes of Ch.9-11. He somehow reminds me of Syrio Forel, the sword master who teaches Arya how to fence in GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire. On the other hand: it almost feels like not everything here is what it seems... We'll find out. (One small thing: Yvon is a girl's name in Dutch, so every time I see it, I first think of a girl. A similar thing happened with Glen Cook's The Black Company, which has a character named Elmo... Even so: love.)
Curious to see how everyone's (hidden) agendas will eventually play out!
Question: Erin, have you at some point considered publishing the book with an appendix, for the names of characters, places, events?
PS The Scribe Award: congrats on the nomination + fingers crossed!
Remind me if I ever go to Neverwinter: no one can be trusted! I hope Farideh can roll a lot of 20s on insight and perception checks. Seems like we have multiple sinister plots developing – and several folks are trying to play Farideh like a pawn.
I have a question. Yvon Claven explains to Farideh that she has three options. She can stick with Lorcan. She can try to kill Lorcan. Or she can find another (presumably) more powerful devil to make a pact with. Here’s my question; if Farideh kills Lorcan, would she still have the Warlock abilities that Lorcan bestowed on her? Or would the pact be over and Farideh would lose her special powers? I’m curious.
I’m enjoying the story more and more as the plot unwinds and Farideh has some important decisions to make. The devilish (pun intended) plans of Sairche, Invidiah, Yvon, and Rohini are still a little murky, but I suspect the next set of chapters will clear up all the motivations. Can’t wait!
Side note - for the season of D&D Encounters that just started last week, I’m playing a Warlock. I’ve never played a Warlock before, but Brimstone Angels inspired me to give it a try. Specifically, my character is a Hexblade Warlock with the infernal pact. Cool stuff. I was thinking of being a Tiefling, but I decided to be a kobold instead because I really like Kobolds. Since 4E is coming to an end, I better play all the race/class combos I find interesting before we switch over to a new edition.
Folks, I am traveling (Boy, gold_piece you weren't kidding about babies and planes. Not one word of writin done) and finishing Lesser Evils, so I will probably not be around to answer questions for at least a few days after this. But I will be back and address anything posed in my absence! Promise!
(One small thing: Yvon is a girl's name in Dutch, so every time I see it, I first think of a girl. A similar thing happened with Glen Cook's The Black Company, which has a character named Elmo... Even so: love.)
Question: Erin, have you at some point considered publishing the book with an appendix, for the names of characters, places, events?
PS The Scribe Award: congrats on the nomination + fingers crossed!
That would be the publisher's decision, not mine. And since this book was quite over its projected word count, I suspect they would have politely declined if I'd suggested it. But in general, I feel like appendices are cheating. Ideally, you should be able to absorb all the necessary information from the book, and if I didn't do that, shame on me.
Then again, I know a lot of people like them as additional material more than cheat sheets, like maps in the forematter. Would this be something you (any of you!) would like to see on an author's blog or Goodreads page?
I have a question. Yvon Claven explains to Farideh that she has three options. She can stick with Lorcan. She can try to kill Lorcan. Or she can find another (presumably) more powerful devil to make a pact with. Here’s my question; if Farideh kills Lorcan, would she still have the Warlock abilities that Lorcan bestowed on her? Or would the pact be over and Farideh would lose her special powers? I’m curious.
Unless someone at WotC contradicts me, I'd say she loses her powers. Lorcan isn't the source of her powers (the Hells are) but he is the conduit. So if he goes away, she doesn't have that connection. However, I'd assume (much as Yvon assumes) that if you're a warlock you'd want to stay a warlock, and all those devils in the Hells would be keen to pick up a warlock who already knows his or her way around the pact. So killing Lorcan is really a different path to picking up another devil in Yvon's mind.
Side note - for the season of D&D Encounters that just started last week, I’m playing a Warlock. I’ve never played a Warlock before, but Brimstone Angels inspired me to give it a try. Specifically, my character is a Hexblade Warlock with the infernal pact. Cool stuff. I was thinking of being a Tiefling, but I decided to be a kobold instead because I really like Kobolds. Since 4E is coming to an end, I better play all the race/class combos I find interesting before we switch over to a new edition.
I love hearing things like this! And I love being able to point them out to the people who make my contracts. :D
The warlock is absolutely my favorte 4E class. I actually haven't played an Infernal Pact, but the Fey Pact was the most fun character I think I've ever played.
That article made me smile (sorry! :b), even though it spoils the nature of Yvon and his gang. :|
Naming: I'd have chopped the last letter off, and have him be 'Yvo'. And to get back to the owlbear: the Latin would work for me, if you take the two names and fuse them together, just like the monster itself: 'urstrig'. Sounds like something dangerous that's been around more than long enough to have earned its spot as a top predator.
in general, I feel like appendices are cheating. Ideally, you should be able to absorb all the necessary information from the book, and if I didn't do that, shame on me.
Then again, I know a lot of people like them as additional material more than cheat sheets, like maps in the forematter. Would this be something you (any of you!) would like to see on an author's blog or Goodreads page?
An appendix can be superfluous. I was surprised (and delighted) to see one in the back of James L. Sutter's Death's Heretic - awesome novel that tied for second in the Compton Crook Award for Best First Novel - only after finishing it. Overall, I'm very curious and somewhat of a completionist, so I like to have the info at hand. Especially the chapters that take place in Malbolge have some namedropping going on - understandable in Shared Universe Fiction - which sort of forces me to get off the couch and turn on my laptop to go to the FR wikia and look it all up. So, I would have liked it if Brimstone Angels had an appendix to leaf through. (No need to put it on your blog or Goodreads page, though.)
1. Love the story about naming Yvon. I watched an interview with George R.R. Martin where he said he'd followed the "no same first letter" rule for his entire career until he hit Game of Thrones and it pretty much got thrown out the door. He also pointed out that a large majority of the people in British history are named Edward or Henry with the occasional George or Richard thrown in, so "realistically" a lot of people have the same name. I can see how editors would love this rule and how it would confuse readers less, but I expect a lot of fantasy writers run into the same issue as a series or a shared world gets more robust. It's also amusing that every character in the Realms has a different name, which is much different from our world. I almost think they should put something about this in the next campaign guide to justify it. Something like: "Individuals in the Realms take pride in naming their children something unique to set them apart..." It also strikes me that Tolkien (linguist) obviously couldn't have done this, and many of his names are very similar (especially for the elves). And think of those dwarves - Balin, Bifur, Bofur, Bombur. Still, the members of the fellowship almost all have different starting letters: Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, Gandalf, Legolas, Gimli, Boromir, Aragorn (only the G repeats). My personal opinion on this is that if you give the reader a strong enough mental image (and this doesn't necessarily always have to be physical) of a character, they won't have too hard a time distinguising them. For example, I remember that Balin founded Moria and I have no idea about Bifur and Bofur, but Bombur... who can't visualize big fat Bombur!
2. As we get more and more into this story, it makes me wish we could go back in time and release this as the first Forgotten Realms novel of 4th edition. It introduces so many things that are 4th ed. Realms: Tieflings (as a prominant race), Dragonborn, Warlocks, the Spellplague, spellscars, dead gods, a different landscape (in Neverwinter), etc. A novel like this really updates the setting for me, and maybe some of the people crying for a retcon of the Realms back to pre-Spellplague times might change their tune (I said some, not all.) Alas, there was probably no way for this to happen with how 4th was changing and the very fast-paced timeline, but one can look back and wish...
3. Appendicies and Glossaries - I don't think this book needs one. I see a need for one in something like Game of Thrones, but not a book on this scale. I do appreciate when people fill out all this information on sites like Good Reads and Shelfari, however, because it helps when you look back on things you may not have read in a while. The Realms is collective storytelling by people who don't necessarily talk to each other a lot, and it can be difficult to connect all the pieces for even seasoned vets, much less newbies. I find summaries of the books especially helpful (when available), because I'm often asking myself "now what the heck happened in that book..." One of my "dream" projects is also to put together a huge interactive map of the Realms where you can click on cities and regions and it will show you the books/stories associated with that place (with links to all the information for that book/story including characters, plot summary, publication info, etc.). I'm constantly asking our Book Club authors "how do your stories interconnect to each other" and I'd also like to compile this info. So yes, Wizards, I sit waiting for my contract! It's going to take a lot of reading time, after all...
A few other notes:
- I love the Ashmadai group that we glimpsed here. I'm hoping they took out Goruc for good. He was starting to annoy me a little.
- The scene where Havi was flirting with Brin was well done. This struck me as very realistic and easy to visualize.
- Farideh hinted to Sairche that there was another Brimstone Angel. I wonder when someone is going to try and "collect" Havilar. Seems much easier than trying to steal Farideh. In fact, Sairche would have an easy time of it playing off the whole jealousy aspect with Brin.
- Goldpiece - I'm starting a Web of the Spider Queen Encounters campaign tonight with my family. (We have no game store within an hour, so I bought the campaign off eBay. You don't want to know how much.) My wife is going to play a fey-pact Warlock (hexblade). My son is playing a Kobold (scout with the trapsmith theme). My dad is a goblin illusionist, and my mother a human slayer (we're on an unending mission to find her the easiest character to play). Who else is playing this season? I know David Given (one of our readers) plays every season. He posts great videos and summaries over on his community site.
Another great section. I'll agree with Dado that this would have been an excellent first 4E Realms book. I do have to wonder how some of these very 4E things (tieflings as depicted in 4E, dragonborn, warlocks) will come into play with D&D Next, and what influence those decisions will have on the novel-writing process. I'd hate to see stories like this be de-emphasized because they star tiefling warlocks, which may or may not be featured in the current game product. My guess is everything is still up in the air at this point, and even if it weren't, the authors would likely be bound by a NDA for the time being.
I continue to enjoy Rohini's inner monologue about the interplay between succubi and erinyes. It seems like both groups of devils both gained and lost when the succubi defected. The succubi kept the wings and the beauty, but they don't have the rank. The erinyes lose their wings and beauty, but they have gained rank and prestige. Thus, the succubi must work to earn a promotion to a more diabolical state, whereas the erinyes are jealous enough to make it hard for the succubi to do so. The net result for Asmodeus and the Nine Hells as a whole can only be positive.
I'm still very curious about who Brin actually is. I thought he might be a royal, but the hint that he has had to be tutored to sound like he's from Suzail may make that not true. Unless I'm missing some piece of Cormyrean history or something.
While I have the day off, I'm going to go read the next section. See you in the next thread!
I'll agree with Dado that this would have been an excellent first 4E Realms book. I do have to wonder how some of these very 4E things (tieflings as depicted in 4E, dragonborn, warlocks) will come into play with D&D Next, and what influence those decisions will have on the novel-writing process.
Indeed - one of the things I liked about 4E was the way it presented tieflings and dragonborn; I do hope they don't get sidelined.
Favourite parts of this section, then: "Kidney Whatsit", the idea of a place that exports evil tieflings, the unfortunate coincidences of Favilar walking into entirely the wrong shop for assistance, and Rohini discovering that Lorcan is Favilar's 'sponsor', the way poor old Mehen gets turned into a punchbag - the list goes on.
Usually I get a bit antsy when coincidences start to stack up in a novel, especially when given a series of choices, each character manages to pick the worst outcome each time. I was beginning to feel a bit uncomfortable here, but things stayed just on the right side of the line. Lorcan's appearing less and less in control as time goes on - and I do like the image of him struggling to maintain a grip on the situation. The fact that he's being pulled into a situation he himself finds terrifying helps give context to what's going on in Neverwinter; I didn't know precisely what was going on, but Lorcan's fear paints a pretty clear picture of where things are headed.
I think one of the reasons the book works so well for me is that there are so many complementary threads; I want to know how Farideh is going to take control of the pact whilst at the same time wanting Lorcan to avoid an unpleasant demise at the hands of his sisters, his mother, or Rohini. I do feel sorry for Mehen, too - everyone's so sure that he's a tough seasoned warrior that they don't see the state he's in. Whereas POV shifts in some novels leave me frustrated and wanting to read more about the main character, here everything's very nicely balanced. Excellent stuff.
1. Love the story about naming Yvon. I watched an interview with George R.R. Martin where he said he'd followed the "no same first letter" rule for his entire career until he hit Game of Thrones and it pretty much got thrown out the door. He also pointed out that a large majority of the people in British history are named Edward or Henry with the occasional George or Richard thrown in, so "realistically" a lot of people have the same name. I can see how editors would love this rule and how it would confuse readers less, but I expect a lot of fantasy writers run into the same issue as a series or a shared world gets more robust. It's also amusing that every character in the Realms has a different name, which is much different from our world. I almost think they should put something about this in the next campaign guide to justify it. Something like: "Individuals in the Realms take pride in naming their children something unique to set them apart..." It also strikes me that Tolkien (linguist) obviously couldn't have done this, and many of his names are very similar (especially for the elves). And think of those dwarves - Balin, Bifur, Bofur, Bombur. Still, the members of the fellowship almost all have different starting letters: Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, Gandalf, Legolas, Gimli, Boromir, Aragorn (only the G repeats). My personal opinion on this is that if you give the reader a strong enough mental image (and this doesn't necessarily always have to be physical) of a character, they won't have too hard a time distinguising them. For example, I remember that Balin founded Moria and I have no idea about Bifur and Bofur, but Bombur... who can't visualize big fat Bombur!
Good example. I wonder if it's easier for a fantasy audience to handle? Or harder since we've coddled our readers for so long. :P (I got some flak for having a Nazra and a Nestrix in the God Catcher).
As we get more and more into this story, it makes me wish we could go back in time and release this as the first Forgotten Realms novel of 4th edition. It introduces so many things that are 4th ed. Realms: Tieflings (as a prominant race), Dragonborn, Warlocks, the Spellplague, spellscars, dead gods, a different landscape (in Neverwinter), etc. A novel like this really updates the setting for me, and maybe some of the people crying for a retcon of the Realms back to pre-Spellplague times might change their tune (I said some, not all.) Alas, there was probably no way for this to happen with how 4th was changing and the very fast-paced timeline, but one can look back and wish...
I think the fear at the time was that focusing on the "weird" stuff would put off readers who felt that too much had changed. But one thing I really liked about this book and this series is that I had room to take some things that people didn't identify as "Realmsy" and fit them into the Realms. And I have had a few people tell me that they did NOT like tieflings or dragonborn going into the book, but after they saw how they would work in the Realms. I have to admit, I love that feeling!
I think the argument is similar to another I've had regarding human vs. non-human main characters. A human is easier to relate to across the board, but a well-written character is easiest to relate to, and it doesn't matter if she or he is human or not. It might not look like the Realms at first blush, but it's the author's job to make it fit!
I'm constantly asking our Book Club authors "how do your stories interconnect to each other" and I'd also like to compile this info. So yes, Wizards, I sit waiting for my contract! It's going to take a lot of reading time, after all...
But in general, I feel like appendices are cheating. Ideally, you should be able to absorb all the necessary information from the book, and if I didn't do that, shame on me. 
