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1 year ago ::
May 21, 2012 - 8:30AM
#21
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Sorry I am late to the party this week. I am not quite sure where the last week went to. I feel like it just completely got away from me.
I agree that the pacing of this book has been great so far. I feel like if we weren't breaking it into sections, I might have sat down on a rainy afternoon and just ripped right through it.
In my first post about the book, I said that the thing I was really enjoying was the relationships in the book and where they could be headed. This next section really kept that rolling for me, and of course we get to see the relationship between Lorcan, his mother, and his sisters. It's just one more really interesting thing to think about when I put the book down. For me, that is what has me counting down the days until I can read the next section. Brimstone Angels has been all about complex relationships and trying to guess how they will develop, how they will handle the stresses that they will be exposed to, and will they survive when character's true colors begin to show.
To answer Erin's question, I am hoping that Lorcan ends up going down the Artemis Entreri road. I would love to be able to like him, but never be able to trust him. I think that would open up an endless supply of possible outcomes for different situations that could arise, and would always keep me guessing.
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1 year ago ::
May 21, 2012 - 9:54AM
#22
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Date Joined:
Mar 17, 2010
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> a straight up monster (irredeemably evil)?
Yes. Absolutely.
With all sorts of horribly grisly displayes of unjust cruelty detailed in depth for chapters on end.
I would love to see an old school bad guy emerge--not some 'shades of grey', devil on the outside / angel on the inside, post-Martin 'all motivations have value' type villian--but real old school, I hurt people because I can type of character. I really doubt that is what we are going to get...We have to much family dynamics & inner dialog for a real dark villian...but, his plans with the orc point to the possibility that we could have a very serious bad ass on our hands never the less...
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1 year ago ::
May 21, 2012 - 12:53PM
#23
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Date Joined:
May 21, 2009
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> a straight up monster (irredeemably evil)?
Yes. Absolutely.
With all sorts of horribly grisly displayes of unjust cruelty detailed in depth for chapters on end.
I would love to see an old school bad guy emerge--not some 'shades of grey', devil on the outside / angel on the inside, post-Martin 'all motivations have value' type villian--but real old school, I hurt people because I can type of character. I really doubt that is what we are going to get...We have to much family dynamics & inner dialog for a real dark villian...but, his plans with the orc point to the possibility that we could have a very serious bad ass on our hands never the less...
Out of curiosity--connects up with an off-line conversation I was having quite nicely--do you feel like you're missing this sort of villain in general?
So follow-up question, all: How much does the Monster Manual alignment mean to you when you read a tie-in novel like this? Obviously, if you don't play, it's going to have less of an effect. But for those of you familiar with the sourcebooks (especially those of you who cut your fantasy teeth on them), would a Chaotic Evil devil bother you? Would a Lawful Neutral devil bother you more? What about an evil metallic dragon?
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1 year ago ::
May 21, 2012 - 2:26PM
#24
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I think I'd like to see Lorcan as something between the total monster and the Entreri-type. Like, you can't trust him because you know that he's really out only for his own good and advancement. However, that advancement doesn't always necessitate evil and murder and such. Only occasionally. He might benefit by trying to hide that side using all the nondisclosure and vague language that he can, but he's ruthless and feels no remorse when he gets his hands dirty.
Out of curiosity--connects up with an off-line conversation I was having quite nicely--do you feel like you're missing this sort of villain in general?
So follow-up question, all: How much does the Monster Manual alignment mean to you when you read a tie-in novel like this? Obviously, if you don't play, it's going to have less of an effect. But for those of you familiar with the sourcebooks (especially those of you who cut your fantasy teeth on them), would a Chaotic Evil devil bother you? Would a Lawful Neutral devil bother you more? What about an evil metallic dragon?
As for "old school bad guys" - I think they can definitely still work. I'm remembering Mr. Teatime from Terry Pratchett's "Hogfather" as someone with zero empathy/redeeming value. Actually, Pratchett had another good one with Carcer, the villain from "Night Watch". You know, for such a funny guy, his villains are pretty awful people. Of course, those books are at least a decade old, so I'm not sure I can make a statement about fantasy today.
Monster Manual alignment - I'd care for planar beings that are supposed to epitomize their alignment. Like, I'd be bothered by an extremely chaotic devil. That being said, you could have subtleties as you move into the neutral alignments. Like an extremely meticulous worker at the Avernus DMV - Lawful Neutral? Lawful Evil? It may depend on how much joy they derive by sending someone to the back of the line with three more forms that need to be filled out. This is probably the Eberron talking, but I'm not bothered by alignment shifts with dragons, and I'm actually happy about the unaligning of the metallics. As mortals, they're not meant to be absolutes the way outsiders are, but being as long-lived and powerful as they are, I don't think their concept of "good" can necessarily match that of the common races.
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1 year ago ::
May 22, 2012 - 1:15PM
#25
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How do I like my bad guys? Well… I like them conflicted. And that’s how I see Lorcan- at this point at least. He’s basically evil, but I think I’m seeing a compassionate streak buried deep inside. Maybe because he’s the runt of the family he has developed some empathy? Or maybe I’m just making things up. Too early to say. I must admit that every time I listen to Justin Bieber, I feel an urge to read the Twilight books, too. I could see Lorcan taking the path of the Cullen folks. Similar to Edward resisting the urge for blood, I could imagine Lorcan turning away from cruel and hateful actions - despite his nature. Lorcan is probably my favorite character so far. I can’t wait to see what becomes of him.
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1 year ago ::
May 22, 2012 - 9:23PM
#26
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Date Joined:
May 21, 2009
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As for "old school bad guys" - I think they can definitely still work. I'm remembering Mr. Teatime from Terry Pratchett's "Hogfather" as someone with zero empathy/redeeming value.
Off topic, but have you seen the mini-series? There was a bus driver who drove my route to work who looked and sounded enough like Mr. Teatime from that (minus the spooky eyes) that I always hesitated to get on the bus when I saw it was him. Anyway....
Monster Manual alignment - I'd care for planar beings that are supposed to epitomize their alignment. Like, I'd be bothered by an extremely chaotic devil. That being said, you could have subtleties as you move into the neutral alignments. Like an extremely meticulous worker at the Avernus DMV - Lawful Neutral? Lawful Evil? It may depend on how much joy they derive by sending someone to the back of the line with three more forms that need to be filled out. This is probably the Eberron talking, but I'm not bothered by alignment shifts with dragons, and I'm actually happy about the unaligning of the metallics. As mortals, they're not meant to be absolutes the way outsiders are, but being as long-lived and powerful as they are, I don't think their concept of "good" can necessarily match that of the common races.
That last line is something I definitely agree with. I think it makes for much stronger characterization with the races who are farther from human to consider what their viewpoint really looks like. And for a dragon, that is going to be extremely alien in a lot of ways.
How do I like my bad guys? Well… I like them conflicted. And that’s how I see Lorcan- at this point at least. He’s basically evil, but I think I’m seeing a compassionate streak buried deep inside. Maybe because he’s the runt of the family he has developed some empathy? Or maybe I’m just making things up. Too early to say.
I must admit that every time I listen to Justin Bieber, I feel an urge to read the Twilight books, too. I could see Lorcan taking the path of the Cullen folks. Similar to Edward resisting the urge for blood, I could imagine Lorcan turning away from cruel and hateful actions - despite his nature. Lorcan is probably my favorite character so far. I can’t wait to see what becomes of him.
Spoiler: He doesn't sparkle. 
I'm loving all these answers! I can't obviously weigh in on Lorcan. I will say I like a range of villains in general, and I think there's a range in this book (some of whom we still have to meet!). But my favorites are always the ones you sympathize with, start to even root for, and then you realize what you're doing. The Tony Soprano villains. It's a nice balance--they're evil, but it's a a very human evil. To me, they're scarier than straight up monsters.
Except zombies. I [stlarning] hate zombies.
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1 year ago ::
May 23, 2012 - 3:41PM
#27
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As for "old school bad guys" - I think they can definitely still work. I'm remembering Mr. Teatime from Terry Pratchett's "Hogfather" as someone with zero empathy/redeeming value.
Off topic, but have you seen the mini-series? There was a bus driver who drove my route to work who looked and sounded enough like Mr. Teatime from that (minus the spooky eyes) that I always hesitated to get on the bus when I saw it was him. Anyway....
[OFF-TOPIC] Haven't (yet) seen it, or any TV/film adaptations of Pratchett's work, though I'd definitely like to. Part of me wonders if the humor translates well to the screen. My wife and I are huge fans though. I tried uploading a picture of our kitty snoozing on a bookshelf containing two complete sets of Discworld novels, but I can't get the pic to work right.[OFF-TOPIC]
Spoiler: He doesn't sparkle.
Actually, speaking of that - part of me wondered a bit if some of the premise of this book was meant to be a bit of an anti-Twilight. (Full Disclosure - I haven't read the series and don't plan to.) I always found the premise of vampires hanging out with teenagers in high school to be pretty silly and very far removed from the more typical predatory depiction; even the more benevolent of Anne Rice's vampires were still pretty terrible monsters and they knew it. Here, Farideh is going somewhat gooshy over this bad boy... who IS in fact (at least in my opinion at this point in the story) a terrible monster. I dunno if that comparison ever entered your mind or not, but I found myself wondering.
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1 year ago ::
May 24, 2012 - 10:55AM
#28
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Date Joined:
May 21, 2009
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Actually, speaking of that - part of me wondered a bit if some of the premise of this book was meant to be a bit of an anti-Twilight. (Full Disclosure - I haven't read the series and don't plan to.) I always found the premise of vampires hanging out with teenagers in high school to be pretty silly and very far removed from the more typical predatory depiction; even the more benevolent of Anne Rice's vampires were still pretty terrible monsters and they knew it. Here, Farideh is going somewhat gooshy over this bad boy... who IS in fact (at least in my opinion at this point in the story) a terrible monster. I dunno if that comparison ever entered your mind or not, but I found myself wondering.
I may have pitched this book as "Twilight plus Labyrinth plus Faust, to a Lady Gaga soundtrack."
To be fair, I did that before I read Twilight (and I read Twilight because I said that and figured I needed to be sure I was saying what I thought I was saying). I was mostly thinking about the structure of Twilight's relationship. It may work for others, but it squicks me out. Not only is Edward an immortal predatory monster, but he really acts in ways that are classically abusive behavior and others that are just...well, if my boyfriend had broken into my room to watch me sleep, I would not be swooning, I would be freaking out. And it's all packaged as this awesome, romantic relationship.*
So my thoughts in relation to Twilight were sort of, "What if you had a relationship like that, but you all agreed at the outset that it was a very bad idea? How does that change the interaction? How does that change the way it evolves?"
*Don't get me wrong--Stephanie Meyer has clearly done something very right if she's hooked this many readers.
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13 months ago ::
May 25, 2012 - 2:26PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Mar 15, 2010
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Okay, here's a non-spoilery question: Since it seems like there are arguments here for a variety of paths, which would you rather see Lorcan emulate at this point? Drizzt (rises above evil heritage in unexpected way), Entreri (likeable in his badness and still sympathetic, but not good), or a straight up monster (irredeemably evil)?
I like characters that evolve over the course of a novel, and Lorcan is interesting enough as a character for me to want to see him be tested and develop. I think it's harder to develop characters that start at "100% Bad" and stay there. For some reason, he doesn't strike me as the 'irredeemable evil' type despite the fact that he's very definitely a nasty piece of work. I guess being half-human muddies the waters a bit.
Given how far I've read, I can't really give an unbiased answer, but I'm entirely satisfied with how things turned out
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